RichJohnson Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Apparantly Johnathan has gone out of business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Rich, the throttle will be fully opened with about 2/3 of a turn, opening it all the way won't hurt anything, just possibly make it go faster if you have the fire to keep up the pressure. Let us know what you think of the Accucraft oil. I'm sorry to hear that Johnathan has gone out of business, should be others on the west coast that does LS work. I'm not familiar with Wiseman or Iron Creek, will look for them on the web. LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Wow, 2/3 of a turn is way more than I get garner out of a servo. So top speed will not be attained. Thanks, I will use the full extent of the servo arm and attach close to the center of the throttle arm. Though. I belive I will only get about 1/3 open or so. Not even close to half way. Will it still move under that low of steam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Rich, That is really all you need for that loco to perform. OR you can check out my posting of using Chain and Sprocket to get much more throttle movement, published in SiTG magazine and also posted on MLS. BUT that is not needed with the loco you have. Check it with what you have before you come to any conclusions of it's performance. LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 I got my servo mounted under the chassis using a mount that I fabricated to bolt to the chassis using the Accucraft data plate screws. I will glue the data plate elsewhere on the undercarriage. I am able to get about about 40% of rotation on the throttle valve. Really hope that will be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Rich, have you fired it up and opened the throttle to see what kind of performance you would get at 40% throttle? Forgot to mention, got an Email directly from Roundhouse, they will sell and ship their oil to ANYONE, so we need to be careful who we deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 Good to know. No I haven't fired it yet. Waiting on my accucraft oil. Im hoping 40% of a turn will be enough. IF not I will have to go to robot shop and get some gears and chain. A slightly bigger gear on the servo and smaller on the throttle will open it a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Rich, if you scroll down under the Live Steam section, you will see where I posted two chain and sprocket installs. LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 25, 2017 Author Share Posted November 25, 2017 Well, first steam up down and man did it suck...... If its like this every time I can see why it got sold. I know the cylinders have to heat up before it really gets working good, but seems like its geared really high for a shay. Kinda like the 3 rail shays that run at break neck speeds..... I really wanted to switch back and forth with it, but it might not be good for that kinda work. So my throttle wasn't responding very well. my full open was a good speed, but I wasn't able to get it close all the way with the servo. (it did when it was cold) The valve was lagging on the servo while it was hot where as it moves smooth and full to close when its cold. The pressure gauge didn't come up at all for a while until it started blowing the safety, which it did constantly because I was fussing with it constantly.... A brake would be awesome on this thing but it does reverse very well I will say that. It doesn't track worth a shit.... IT derailed constantly and, the slip drive shafts kept coming out on the tighter curves.. My RR aint much, so its tight but not the sharpest out there. IT also derailed on a lot of the switches too. ITs a mess right now, lots of dirt on the trucks, crank and in the slip shafts. I sprayed it down with 409 and the hose on the bottom but not the boiler since its still kinda hot. I need to move my control rod out one notch on the throttle lever so I can get more leverage, but that will take away from top end throttle. But we'll see what will happen. So far, it was just a big PIA that was not fun...More learning curve ahead..... I was so busy fussing I didn't even get any pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stubbs Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Hi Rich, New to this but have been following with interest. Sorry to hear it didn't go to well on the first run. I had a thought on the low speed problem. I've read the stock needle on the throttle has a steep taper so even a little motion will open it up. Take a look at TD77 Steam Valve Replacement. it has a fine needle and is supposed to help a lot with low speed operation. its a simple unscrew the old one and screw in the new one. uses the stock servo arm. That and the chain drive (looks very cool but long on your set up) should work great. Again I'm kinda new to this so hope others will chime in in either confirm or correct my suggestion. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stubbs Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 A link to it only $12 https://www.thetraindepartment.com/ttd-upgrade-valves/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 I have figured out why the shay tracks so terribly. Like a lot of On3 bras shays, especially ones built from the kemtron kit, the trucks are too rigid. I have built and fixed a lot of On3 shays and if the trucks are too rigid they derail and cant rock over the track. That is the case here with the Mich Cal #2. First, the trucks screw springs are way way too tight. Two, the truck sits right on its bolster bumpers on each side, third, the truck screw is very long, and the wide head is seated inside the lower portion of the truck bolster, which acts like a vertical anchor into the truck and does not allow the shay to rock on top of its trucks. I need to now replace the truck screws with short ones, preferable without tension springs. Need a trip to the specialty hardware store for some metric screws. I cant recal how many locos in On3 and hon3 I have fixed by removing or severly lightening the tender or shay truck springs so the weight of the loco can ride on the truck and rock over top of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Rich, also sorry to hear that your first run was less than satisfactory. I think once you get the servo under control you will better get the speed under control. I don't use the 'finer thread' throttle and am very happy with mine. If the slip shafts are coming out, maybe your curves are too sharp for how it was designed, unless the previous owner cut them shorter than the manufacturer, but why?? The 2 cylinder shay is geared higher than the 3, offered by Accucraft. The 3 is actually more to scale speed. I occasionally switch trucks on them so as to get a longer run time on the 3. Both are fun either way. Be patient, tackle one issue at a time and I'm sure you will get to like it. LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 I decided to try to run my IDA, which is the saddle tank version of Ruby. Its about 15 years old but I only ran it a handful of times on bench rollers. Well, seems like it takes forever to get steam and then only goes to the end of track about 40 feet and then I stop it and try to reverse it and no more steam or the fire goes out and I have to re light it, then it still wont get any steam. Basically all 4 attempts sucked. Im starting to think the small steam models are just novelties to run around a circle at waist height at a club or park rather than try to run on a backyard RR. Kinda think I got sucked into something Im not going to enjoy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I can not comment n the IDA or Ruby as I have neither, but do have 2 two cylinder shays and 1 three cylinder. My shay's give me at minimum 25 minute run. I also posted (different forum) about 2 years ago my 3 cylinder shay pulling 15 gondola and ore cars filled with stone and gravel around my oval, for 20 minutes. I know a fellow that has a ground layout, very nicely scenic and his Shay looks beautiful pulling a string of logs or even occasionally a tourist car. Then again small scale live steam isn't for everyone. LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 Ok good to know. The Ruby is quite small but takes almost as much water as the mich-cal shay. It just seems to take forever to steam up and then didn't last but a couple minutes. I need more time firing the IDA to get accustomed to it better. I will say firing it on the ground is kinda a drag. Hopefully I can figure it out and get 15-20 minutes of use out of it. Going to the special hardware store today to search for new screws for the trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 Ok so I changed the truck screws on the Shay and sleeved them with brass tubing and put a very tiny thin washer on top of them. Now the shay can rock side to side when I push on it. What a huge difference. Someone told me the Bmann shay derails all over if you have rough track. I took mine down from the mantle under the glass display case where it has been for 15 years and looked at it. Sure enough Bmanm made the same mistake. IT has huge bump stops on the sides allowing forward to rear rocking of the trucks but none at all side to side. I will have to pull the trucks and file the bump stops off if I want to run it around too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 Ok I just did another fire up and run. All I can say is nobody should have to put the amount of effort into a loco just to get it to run. I really am not having fun yet, and this is more an exercise in frustration than anything. Its really lucky that I know a lot about shays or the drailing issue would have driven an unknowing person insane..... So the shay does not derail any more. It tracks very nicely. Perfectly if I might add. Problem solved there. Steaming I still have control issues. The throttle valve moves full motion to steam and go up grade too, but it just will not shut off with the servo while its hot, even though it will shut off tight when its cold. I need some help here, what is going on or causing this? I have to phiscally stick my finger in the cab and pull the lever up the last little bit to get the steam to shut off. but when its cold it closes tight. Next, this shay constantly throws its slip joints. Trying to go through switches and around curves they come out every time. I burned the crap out of myself every time I tried to put the front one back in place. Also got shot in the face twice by the steam relief. I lost most of my steam through the relief valve from so much time fussing with the damn slip joints. Why am I having this problem? Is this shay not rated to go around G scale curves? I have the tightest switches I guess,(I know they make larger gentler ones) but my curve that it keeps throwing the slip joints on is not the tightest. Its at least one diameter up from the tightest. Please help me here, If I can run this thing with the track I built I am really screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 I went to the accucraft page for this loco and found that it states the spec as min radius at 48". Well, I went over the track on my RR and found my largest radius translates from MM to 46". So unless I rebuild my whole RR, which isn't saying much. This thing aint going to run on my track. It wont go through any G scale switches because they are all like 24" radius unless I buy the really long gentle type switches that would be like a #8 or #10 or something.... Not sure what I will do now.... Also, I suspect I probably need a larger stronger servo to get the throttle valve to close tight for operation. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 23 hours ago, RichJohnson said: Ok I just did another fire up and run. All I can say is nobody should have to put the amount of effort into a loco just to get it to run. I really am not having fun yet, and this is more an exercise in frustration than anything. On 11/27/2017 at 5:15 AM, Screwy Nick said: Then again small scale live steam isn't for everyone. New Post: LIFE IS GOOD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 If I may add; if you also have a directional servo, just drop the bar into Neutral and the loco will stop. I never set my throttle servos to fully shut off the steam as it is almost impossible to do so. Just my way of how to operate a Small Scale Live Steam Locomotive. It takes time and patience to learn little things. LIFE IS GOOD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 I was thinking of extending the servo arm a little with a brass bar and then move the connecting rod point on the throttle out one hole and see if that gives me enough torque to close the throttle. I also measured the length of the truck slip shaft into the receiver on the cylinders and then the clear space inside the receiver at maximum and there is room to extend the slip shafts on the trucks by .225. That's quite a bit that might allow me to take the 46 inch radius I have. The bad news is last night my wife told me she didn't want me doing a garden RR again. our backyard is mostly dirt and a rickedy old patio. We never go back there because the neighbors have nasty pitbulls that bark constantly while we are back there so I just store a bunch of jeep parts and stuff on the patio. She said she wants me to tear down the patio and the broken up concrete and take up the RR track and level it and put grass in, Nice to know after I just spent a few hundred bucks on more tack stuff.... So I may be back out of this as quick as I got back into it sadly. Not sure if I will keep all the trains this time around or not. I love this live steam shay and may look for a group that does it around here. My ruby is a bit of a pain to steam so far. I don't really want to get rid of it but I have not place to use this stuff, I do something else with the money and the space. Also I bought a LGB Daisy to make into 1:20 to run my ore cars around quick and I don't need it now either lol. Ugh. oh well. I have some time so I will still putz with the shay and try to get it right before I abandon the grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 Rich, if if you extend the slip shafts, they may be just fine when the running gear is on the outside of the curve, but would 'bottom out' and not let the trucks swivel enough when the running gear is on the inside of the curve. I am sorry to hear you will not be joining those of us that like to burn our fingers. Just like your Bachmann, store this one somewhere. One never can predict what the future will bring, just maybe there is still an outside track somewhere in your future. Good Luck LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJohnson Posted December 9, 2017 Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 I measured the inside clear space of the slip tube by moving the truck to the tightest inside curve point and marked the shaft. Then measured the shaft from that length and measured the inside distance and found that I have about .228 clear space beyond the current length. If I add .225 I should be fine. Its a lot of work to accurately silversolder on shaft extensions and I was going to do it but now I guess its just not really worth trying since my RR will come up, but then again, I might find another RR with tight curves. For now, nothing matters. I got called up by the Calguard for civil support with the LA wildfires so I will be gone a couple weeks now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 On 12/9/2017 at 9:48 AM, RichJohnson said: For now, nothing matters. I got called up by the Calguard for civil support with the LA wildfires so I will be gone a couple weeks now. Thanks and good luck ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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