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Big boy issue


HouseMedic
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Just to update, My BB is now running fine. I have power supplied thru a 24V 15 amp power supply going to my Revo Superbase station that has the filter update. I have done away with the WIFI part as that problem never did clear up. I now have a MTH handheld and now when I start up, everything works as it should, mind you this is on a test track with the BB on rollers. It is still too cold wet and just plain crappy outside to set up the big track, soon as the weather cooperates, this will be my first to do. If it works as great as it does on the bench it should be a great summer. THanks to Ray also the TIU is hooked up passively and seems to operate well. Am putting the power at a steady 18 volts.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Am at my wits end, The Damn BB is again not working. worked on the bench just fine, works DCC just fine. again it on the bench it is great , get it out on the track and my handheld says no engine found. after 2 and half years of screwing around with this damn 1400 dollar wall hanger I am pissed. I thought when it worked on the bench everything was fine, WRONG. we now have it hooked up passivly to the TIU, with linear DC Voltage applied . at 18 volts to the track with the plus and minus in proper hookup. CANT FIND ENGINE. I am just disgusted.We are going to put in back on the bench, hookup passivly , if it works go direct to the track and see if it will go. if it does not, I am going to put a Revo in the damn thing and be done with the MTH system. Is anyone else having problems with thier BB? May be I have a lemon. in any event I am very unhappy with this damn engine.

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Hi there,

 

Just got off the phone and wanted to summarize the discussion.  The problems described indicate system operation issues and below are what I see as the problem:

 

  • Regarding not operating on the main layout but working fine on the bench, the one thing being done differently is on the bench when track power is turned on, track power was being immediately set to 18v soon as power was turned on.  On the layout, the voltage was being very slowly turned up to 18v.  Slowly turning up the voltage can and will make the engine auto power up and startup in analog mode.  What was explained was they could blow the whistle and bell with remote but engine wouldn't move.... Yes that is correct.  When the engine starts-up in analog mode you can still blow the bell and whistle but it won't respond to commands to move from the remote as it is in Analog mode, not Command mode.   Whenever track power is first applied with TIU in place, it is imperative that track power go to 18-24v immediately and not slowly turned up.  When that happens the engine will stay silent just like it does on the bench.  (The fact that it works every time on the bench and not on the layout is an indicator of an operational issue and something was different between the two, which was the focus of my questions to try and determine what was different/changed.)

 

  • The other problem described was that user could not get the engine to move when trying to run under straight analog DC power.  When a PS3 engine first powers up in Analog DC (or AC) (without the TIU connected to the track/power supply wiring), the engine will power up (Lights, sound and/or smoke) but will sit static and won't move.  The engine wont move till you drop track voltage to 0 then raise back up.  So this is normal behavior and is designed this way so that if an engine accidentally misses a TIU startup signal on the layout that you don't have engines taking off running on the layout at max track voltages which is not good.

 

Here are the different modes and how to operate under each:

 

 

DC Analog operation: 

  • Settings/Configuration
    • TIU = Completely disconnected from power supply and track power wiring
    • DCS/DCC switch on engine = Set to DCS
  • Steps:
    • When you first apply power to the track the engine will power up (Lights/Sound and/or Smoke) but engine will not move.  (not moving is correct behavior)
    • To get the engine to move, flip your direction switch to the middle (OFF) where track power is cut off.  Then after about a second, flip to the direction you want the engine to move and it will start moving.  Instead of using the direction switch you can also use your dial to turn voltage down to zero then back up and then the engine will move.  
      • From our discussion and saying that the engine would not move under analog power with the switch set to DCS, this is why.  You must drop voltage to the track then bring it back up for it to move. 

 

DCS Command Control: (With TIU & Remote or TIU & WIU)

  • Settings/Configuration
    • TIU = Is connected to track wiring.  If connected 'Passively' then power supply goes to FIXED 1 output ports of TIU only with + to RED and - to BLACK.  (If track power polarity to the TIU terminals is incorrect, you will get Engine not found when trying to use the remote.  So polarity to TIU is critical.  Polarity to engine does not matter in this case because it is PS3 equipped.
    • DCS/DCC switch on engine = Set to DCS
  • Steps:
    • Have DCS/DCC switch already set to DCS on engine with track power off (and engine having been sitting with no power for at least 30 seconds.
    • Turn power to the track on.  (Track power needs to be increased to the 18-24v QUICKLY or instantly the moment power is turned on).  After track power is applied, the engine should sit there quiet with NO sound, lights or smoke.  It is powered up in command mode and waiting for commands.  After you apply track power, WAIT ABOUT 5 SECONDS and let the TIU fully boot up. 
      • Note: If you turn track power up slowly the engine will power up under analog mode and auto power up.  That is what I think is happening here.  It was explained that track power was being turned up very very slowly which for sure will cause the problem.  (Note: For any engine that is powered up but not moving and you have the TIU in place, you can use your remote/Wifi app to select "Legacy Mode" to change the engine to DCS Command mode so you can fully control the engine with the remote/App)
        • On the bench when track power is turned on it goes instantly to 18v but on the layout track power was being slowly increased.  This sounds exactly like the issue.
        • I will also note that you could be having an issue where the voltage is set so low that the engine powers up but the TIU isn't powered properly.  

 

DCC switch:

  • The only time the DCC switch should be set to DCC is if you are trying to use DCC control equipment (Digitrax systems, etc).  So for DCS or Analog DC/AC users, you will NEVER need to flip that switch.  Just leave on DCS and forget it.

 

To summarize:

  • I believe the problem here was two-fold
    • 1)  DC Analog operation, could not get the engine to move.  
      • This is most likely because was not dropping track voltage and bringing it back up.  Motors dont engage until you drop voltage to zero and then raise back up.
      • If the switch is set to DCC, the engine will start moving immediately soon as track power is first applied.
    • 2)  Engine not responding on the layout but was on the bench
      • Track power was being applied instantly to 18v on the bench but very slowly on the layout.  Applying power slowly to the engine when trying to run under DCS control will cause engine to startup under analog mode and not DCS mode.  If track power is instantly applied to 18v on the main layout this should clear the issue.
      • Also, after track power is turned on, WAIT ABOUT 5 SECONDS and let the TIU fully boot up.

 

This has been a bit of a saga with damaged TIUs and erratic control prior to this and took time to identify that the power supply being used was PWM (Pusle Width Modulated) which was causing all the problems and headaches up to this point.  PWM power can and was damaging the TIUs being used and creates absolutely havoc with model train control electronics.  So a lot of progress has been made and are just down to what appears to be a couple of system operation items.

 

Anytime anyone ever has issues and can't seem to resolve them, I recommend to stop and read/re-read the following two checklists I created and have posted on my DCS Tips page:

 

 

Raymond

 

 

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Ran the BB for a couple hours yesterday. All went fine till we were backing it into the shed, the tender hit the switch and then came the smoke, the engine was pulled within seconds of the start of the smoke, We put BB back on the track and he handheld found the engine but no go. the sound function and lights all work but no go with the motors.  I am going to pull the front drive and check the motors out. backing up we did notice that the draw bar seems to twist to the side when the engine starts backing up, this seems to put stress on the tender and off it comes. We are also finding the the connection to the tender thru the draw bar is not staying attached. this causes the engine and tender to disconnect. Need some sort of clip to keep the connector connected.

I am again very fustrated. I love the damn engine and when it works, the pulling power is awesome, but sometimes I think this thing is a lemon with all the trouble I have had with it. Part of that is not knowing about Linear and PWM stuff. that is all straightened out now. hopefully it is just blown fuses. I now have a five amp fuse in the system to alleviate any shorting problems. Will keep posting.

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It isn't clear to me what must have happened.  There is nothing on the tender itself that would cause anything to short.  

 

In any sort of short event, damage will happen in an instant and only a fuse has any chance of providing protection.  It is hard to know what is going on but assuming a short occurred, there was an avg amperage load of 3amp on the layout (and if all engines stopped except Big Boy then there was likely 1amp load max).  When the event occurred, between 7 and 9amps was allowed to be drawn/shorted which is enough to damage power traces or electronics.(power supply is 10amp max output) because fuse wasn't in-place when it happened.  

 

Also, since another tech has opened up the engine and made modifications, it adds variables that I now can no longer account for.  If this is now some sort of main PS3 board failure, hopefully this isn't an after effect of latent damaged done by running the engine under PWM as that board currently in there was exposed to PWM power for some time before that was corrected.    

 

I do now have a retainer available to slide on the drawbar end to hold the drawbar in place but it fits on tight.

 

As far as the drawbar twisting, need to confirm if the drawbar is twisting when tender is disconnected when you move side to side or only if connected to the tender.

 

Blown internal fuses between the front and rear engine sets would limit power pickup from front engine set and wouldn't impact motor drive not functioning.  The fuses I installed should protect the PCB traces in 99% of derailment/track level shorts. 

 

 

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The  BB is working again. seems the switch track wire melted. I got the BB back on the test bench and It is working fine.That is on the bench. Rain agian so will have to wait a day or so to test it on the track. Replaced the 10 ft switch with a # 6 to give it a longer span. seems to work better.

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