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Hello. Got my engine about 6months a go after 2years of waiting.  Anyway. I just took it out to start using. It is still mounted to the base due to i was testing it first.  I have updated remote and tiu to 6.1.

when I start up the engine everything appears to work just fine until I push the roller to go forward. It hits speed 1 and stays there. It will not go faster, stop, reverse, none of the soft keys work anymore and then I get an out of rf range message. The only way to stop the engine is to turn off power to the tiu. Then I have to take out the battery in the handset to reset that. Is anyone else having or had this issue?  I plan to call mth tomorrow.

Thanks, Mike.

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I agree with Fonzie, with an engine still under warranty I would first contact your Dealer as they should be your first line of support.  Based on what I hear the engine needs work/repair and I don't recommend tinkering with it without talking to either your dealer or MTH first.   

 

As an MTH Dealer myself I do all my own warranty repair for my customers and for these engines I spend a lot of time going through them making sure they are right before shipping them out.  Unfortunately I know most 'Dealers' today are simply pass-through agents forwarding the boxes they get from the manufacturer without even looking at them, so they will probably direct you to MTH.

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I got my BB in june or so last year.  Had nothing but problems with the TIU and the WIFI setup. turns out bad TIU. MTH repaired it and then the fun started. tried using my note*8. it kept dropping the wifi that you use and that came about when i tried to see what the voltage was. it would click off and you had no control over the engine. I do not use that function anymore. so far so good. IMHO I think the MTH remote system is very tricky to use. I love the quillible whistle, the sound and everything else. If there was a way to install Crest Revolution in it I would but you give up to much. I am not sure the system was  designed for outside long stretches of track. Ray sold me some thing that you install in the tracks and since we got it up and running it appears to be working well. I also now shut off my phone and use my kindle for controls. i think the system gets confused if both Kindle and Note 8 are on at the same time.  cant wait till this summer to see what old 4012 will pull.It is a bealutiful engine and when it runs, it is fantastic.

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Update 9/15/18:

See my post below from 9/14/18.  Tom has had 3 TIUs damaged in 12 months (which is unheard of) with physically exploded capacitors most likely due to the power supplies being used.  Most likely one is a PWM(Pulse Width Modulated) power supply that is hitting the electronics with voltage spike frequencies high enough to cause damage.   Please see this post about power supplies:  

 

 

 

Original reply from 1/28/18:

One of the things that some are going to run into is Phone/Tablet issues that impact how the DCS app runs.  I know one group that have large O gauge layout tried going with cheap $50.00 tablets from Walmart (both were identical) and one kept dropping wifi connection and both kept causing all engines to go inactive.  After I deactivated the power save feature from being applied to the DCS app things were better but still would drop to inactive.  The Amazon 7" Kindle Fire I let them used ran flawlessly.  I have seen power save on other devices put the DCS app to sleep after the screen goes blank for screen timeout and that can cause issues in some cases too.  So it is important to pay close attention to what all is going on and to keep some of these things in mind.  I extend the time the screen goes dark to keep the app active on my devices.

 

So it is going to depend on the device, device OS, if you have turned off all power save features, etc on how everything runs.  I have started another thread to provide feedback on different tablets/phones and which ones are to be considered recommended or not.  The newer Samsung OSs actively monitor and put apps to sleep if they are deemed to be using too much battery over too long a time so you again may need to go in and ensure the DCS app is excluded from this feature.

 

Also, I have been recommending that people connect directly to the DCS WIU wifi network directly.

 

If you are running with the DCS App and have had the app update or auto update, make sure your TIU has the most current DCS version loaded to it.

I recommend turning off the App auto-update feature on the phone/tablet to ensure you dont install an app update that requires a new DCS version that you aren't aware of or are unable to perform yourself.

 

DCS signaling works fine on large ovals and is important to follow the guidelines I have documented and shared on my website and key points are:

  • Use Direct to rail clamps on ALL rail joint connections and clamp down tight/secure.  If using brass track and rail is corroded/oxidized, the rail on the joint surfaces need to be cleaned to clean metal.  
    • Eliminate ALL slider joiners the track mfg as provided.
  •  Add jumpers at all switches where the frogs break rail continuity  (2 jumpers at each switch)
  • If you are running a lot of amps or a lot of feet of track, consider going with a Bridgewerks throttle power supply.
  • Tune the layout with my Layout tuners in the method I have laid out.
  • Each oval needs to be one continuous electric loop with No joint Insulators.
  • If running larger ovals, better to have each oval on a separate TIU channel
    • If using more than one TIU channel, ensure the outputs are kept separate from each other in the wiring and at the rail/layout level.

 

If you have issues there is something in this list you have not implemented or has missed/not done correctly.  It is easy, repeatable and no mystery involved.

 

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Tom, one thing to confirm, what version of DCS do you have loaded to the TIU?  I have a feeling that you may be running an older version like 5.00 or 6.00 but are using the most current version of the app.  The most current app version requires DCS 6.10 to be loaded. 

 

See my updated notes above about turning off the app auto update as part of your phone/tablet OS to ensure you control when the app updates occur and that you are aware of when you need to update the TIU.

 

Anyone who updates their app (or has their app auto updated) where the newer app version requires an updated version of DCS (loaded to the TIU) but doesn't update the TIU, will run into app functionality problems.

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Hi Ray, the engine was tested and ran fine, Still under warranty, got it home, put it on the track, ran about 16 minutes then quit again. We have tried a hand held MTH unit and cant get it to find the engine. switched out TIU's and nothing there either. MTH rep in Wisconsin coming over to see it. on the track. We have tried everything we can to make this thing run and nothing seems to work. cant find which version of TIU I have because the unit will not find the engine and we have absoultly no control of the engine.

Had another guy bring his brand new in the box BB over and we could not get it to run. then we got control of it with his hand held and we had 16 volts to the track and all of a sudden I started to bring it up to 22 mph scale and BOOM a capaciter in the the TIU blew and it started smoking. to say the guy was disapointed is an understatement He has not been able to get his to do anything either.

I sent a note to MTH but of course heard nothing back. Wish you were closer. If it does not get fixed by Dec. I will be in S. Iowa again and will bring the damn thing down to have to you give it a go. You are the best when it comes to these things but to bad you are so far away. I dont trust the Mail to get it there unbroken.

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If you can please describe in detail exactly what was going on and also clarify what quit means.  From prior discussions, loss of control but still running = quit.  Quit to me means the engine just shuts downs, stops moving with no lights or anything.  It is important to clearly understand exactly everything that was going on in order to get a true idea of what is going on.  

 

"cant find which version of TIU I have because the unit will not find the engine and we have absolutely no control of the engine."

 

The ability to retrieve the TIU firmware version loaded to the TIU has nothing to do with any engine on the track. If you are trying to use the MTH DCS Remote and cant retrieve the TIU version you have a fundamental problem that sounds like it may be TIU related.  This point you mentioned should also be something key to any other MTH tech you are talking to as well.  Checking TIU firmware version is about turning on track power (With power to Fixed 1 port) then using remote to check firmware version.  In the explanation here I have no indication of what you are seeing and makes me wonder if there is confusion on how TIU version is even checked. 

 

Based on prior conversations, the issue was that the engine keeps going unresponsive to controls from the remote. (it would keep running but just stop responding)  In this same note here you are describing fundamental problems of the Remote and TIU even functioning right which has nothing to do with the engine and again based on what has been told so far would seem to be something key to look at. 

 

Another question, when operating the engine, have you been trying to use both the WIU(Wifi) and the MTH DCS remote at the same time (going back and forth between the two) or have you just been using one?  What phone/tablet are you using with the WIU(wifi)?

 

If you end up bringing back the engine, please have the other MTH tech provide the small board components he removed from the engine so you can bring them back with.  I understand his explanation for removing them but I want them back with the engine if it comes back.  I have a very specific reason for requesting this.

 

Regarding the capacitor blowing in the other TIU, have seen this before with one other person on the forums here.  That isn't related to the engine and the TIU can be repaired.  I recall you guys were using Bridgewerks power supply so power wouldn't have anything to do with it.

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Also if you end up coming down, if possible would like you to bring your TIU, Remote, WIU and table/phone you are using to control the engine.

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Update 12/18/18:  The problem ended up being that Tom was using an Aristocraft Revo Base Station CRE-57005S between his power supply(s) and the TIU.  That model of Revo Base Station converts the input DC power to PWM/PWC power, which is what was damaging the TIUs and causing all the control problems.

 

*************

Original post from 9/14/18:

Wanted to share an update on Tom's issue. 

 

Issues so far:

  • Tom's first TIU failed and had to be returned to MTH
  • Tom's second TIU has now failed (due to damaged/exploded capacitor) and has to be returned to MTH again.
  • Tom's friend was at his house trying to run (supposedly with Bridgewerks power supply) and his capacitor exploded on his TIU.   I believe that we will find that this TIU wasn't just used with the friends Bridgewerks powersupply but also at some point prior run on Tom's power supplies

 

Power supplies:

  • Tom's:  From prior conversations I thought he indicated he was using a Bridgewerks throttle power supply on his layout.  From conversation today Tom isn't using Bridgewerks but rather a 'Computer' type power supply and/or USA Trains Trainpower 10.  (Update 12/18/18:  Ray has confirmed the USA Trains Trainpower 10 is NOT PWM and is safe to use)

 

Conclusion:

I researched the one other time I saw this problem and it was when the customer was using a PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) power supply and once he switched to Bridgewerks never had another problem.  Also spoke with MTH and their head of service agrees this is most likely the result of damage due to PWM power.  So I believe the issue here is power supply related, causing not only the damage to the TIUs but also operational malfunctions.   The power supply is hitting the TIU with PWM frequencies high enough to blow the capacitor in question and certainly causing control and remote malfunctions.  To have three TIUs all fail in the same manner all happening to a single customer is unprecedented and can only be due to the power supply being used.  My recommendation is to get a Bridgewerks throttle type power supply (Magnum SR-15 is a good one to get) as per my original recommendation on 6/11/17 via email.

 

Raymond

 

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Hi Ray

Keep in mind I'm a new guy to DCS . lol

 

Way back I discussed information about the USA 10amp power supplies that have the remote. I ended up going with a Bridgewerks transformer.

 

I do use a USA  on the outside layout for AC accessories only because  Bridgewerks only provides DC.

 

 I also have a second USA 10 amp in my recently set up test track.

It is a 8' section of track with rollers available if I want to use them. It also has a dedicated TIU and remote for testing MTH One Gauge engines.

 

When I test other engine brands I unplug the TIU from the circuit and use the remote attached to the USA 10amp transformer for testing basic operations.

 

My question is, am I doing something wrong with this set up? I have had no issues doing what I have described on the test track. But, I don't want to ruin a TIU if I'm using it incorrectly. I have only tested a half dozen engines or so.

 

Thanks for your time.

Larry

 

********

Ray's comment 12/18/18:  The USA Trains Power 10 power supply is a Linear power supply (not PWM) so it is safe to use.  We cleaned up and removed later replies in this thread to avoid confusion and am posting a reply here to save time and clarify for anyone else reading this later.

 

IMG_1018.JPG

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Got my TIU, WIU and two power supplys back from MTH. first up the USA 10 does have an AC signwave attached to the DC. the tech advised not to use that one with the TIU,. the other is a common 24 volt 15 amp computer power supply, uses and produces pure AC. MTH said it was fine to use. got it all together and had trouble again using the wifi. we finally figured it out. my system for the rest of my trains use Revolution with the Revo base station. this interferes with the WIU as it also has a ac wave to it. we bypassed the Revo Base station, power up the WIU and the TIU putting 18 volts to the track. the BB responded fine to the tablet that I have the DCS downloaded to. also able to use the revo on another train and both trains on the same track and respond well and do not seem to interfere with the other. We are now wondering what amps can the TIU take, I have a large run and getting bigger to be able to run multiple large engines on. I have two Aristo Mallets, and SD70 as well as an Aristo Pacific, LGB mallet and assorted other trains.The BB is the only MTH on the layout. We think the problem is solved but need the amp rating and need to put the train on the big track and see what happens.. all was covered by MTH under warranty and I am happy about that. I got tired of blowing capaciters and other stuff. I did discuss with the MTH guy and he said that there was a bad connection in my TIU that was causing some of the communication problems. we shall see. will keep all posted

 

********

Ray's notes 12/18/18:  I confirmed with Tom via text message that he was in fact using the Aristocraft Revolution CRE-57005S base station (which outputs PWM power) between his power supply and the TIU.  That Revo Base station is what was damaging his and his friend's TIUs, causing all the control issues and likely the issues with his Big Boy engine.  Now that it has been removed from the setup (assuming his other power supplies are ok) then he should get ok results and should clear up most/all of his issues.

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Regarding max amperage per TIU port it is 12amps/190watts (24v max).  Also please see this section on my DCS Tips page:  http://www.rayman4449.com/DCS_Tips.htm#Use_of_TIU_to_provide_signal_to_track:__Normal_vs_Passive_mode  (It also covers running TIU in Passive mode)   As we have discussed before via email and on the phone I do generally suggest running in Passive mode if possible which does eliminate amperage limits.

 

Just to make sure I understand, it sounds like you had your computer power supply feeding into the Revo Base station which was then providing output power to the TIU and the trains on the layout is this correct?  And after you removed the Revo Base station all the problems cleared up is this correct?   What is the model number of the Revolution Base Station that you are using?

 

Also to reconfirm, the Computer power supply is AC and not DC?   My understanding is the Revo Base Station power supply input is for DC power, not AC.   From prior conversations I understood the computer power supply was DC not AC.

 

Also do you remember the MTH tech's name you worked with?  (I think it was Don)  I want to pass on the updated information to him so he understands what was going on because this will explain it for him which he will want to know for the future if he encounters this again.

 

With this additional information I think I now understand fully what has been going on.  Your reply and confirmation is important.  Let me know and can go from there.  Thanks.

 

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I confirmed with Tom via text message that he was in fact using the Aristocraft Revolution CRE-57005S base station which outputs PWM power.  That is what was damaging his and his friend's TIUs and causing all the control and likely issues with his Big Boy engine.  Now that it has been removed from the system, assuming his other power supplies are ok then should get ok results. 

 

To provide background, Tom originally inquired with me directly if he could still run his engines using Aristocraft Revolution.  What I understood that to mean was Aristocraft Revolution equipped engines (where each engine has a Revo control board inside where the Revo wireless handheld communicates to each engine individually, wirelessly and the engines run off constant voltage set to the track).  What was actually meant included to still have an Aristocraft Revo Base station between the power supply and TIU.  In this case because his Revo base station was a model that output PWM power, that is what was causing all the problems and damage.  If he was using a model that output Linear power he would have been ok. 

 

I have added notes on the recommended power supply page specifically noting out the Revo base stations so hopefully will avoid something like this in the future.

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Larry, thank you for sending one of your USA Trains Power 10 power supplies.  Based on what I see on the oscilloscope, the USA power supply has Linear output, not PWM so it should be safe to use with MTH electronics and engines.  I tested the power supply on my layout with a Protosound 3 engine and got excellent track signal tests, solid 10s all the way around my loop and ramp.   My opinion is this power supply is safe to use and can be considered a good option to consider.  Do note that I haven't put the power supply under heavy load with numerous engines and lighted passenger trains.  I still recommend Bridgewerks first and foremost for running MTH trains under DC power in G scale.

 

One note: the N, HO, G knob on the USA power supply appears to just be a Voltage limiter so that you don't over-volt lower scale engines like N and HO.  Max voltage under N=10v, HO=14v, G=24v.

 

Regarding MTH Service's comments about the AC sine-wave attached to the DC, I suspect that may be more of a concern about track signal communication rather than any risk to the TIU itself. 

  • Note:  We have to keep in mind that at the time of MTH Service's comments, it was clear something (a power supply) was causing damage to the TIU but wasn't understood then exactly what as MTH didn't know about the Revo Base Station PWM output).  It is possible they advised to not use the USA power supply thinking it may have had something to do with it.  We now know it didn't.)

 

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Yikes!!!

I have been playng with model railroads on and off since the early 1940's. I fondly remember the "good olde days."  You have a transformer and you hook it to the track, plug in in and then make the train go backwards and forewards. Toot toot. Works every time.

This past few years I got back into trains big time. I pulled the older trains out of storage and and dusted them off. I also splurged and bought a bunch of used engines. Lots of track, too. Then I started to read strings like the one above. 

The next thng I knew I was wearing an old helmit and was running, panic stricken, for the old bomb shelter.:Confounded_Face_Emoji_large(24x24):

You guys sure know how to scare an old geezer!

Isn't there one system that can be fitted to all sorts of G and 1 scale locomotives to enble me to run locos. Make these trains run forward and back ward, control the sounds and the smoke?

Thanks

 

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You won't be able to escape the potential problems created by PWM so the issue isn't to look for some other manufacturer of trains or electronics.   It doesn't matter what sound/control system you are looking at, you don't want to use PWM/PWC power with sound/control electronics, period.  You are opening yourself up to potential problems if you do.  You might be able to find some that are more tolerant of PWM but the point is, if you plan to run trains with sound/control electronics, just dont use PWM/PWC.  In fact, Aristocraft made two versions of their base stations, a PWM/PWC version and a Linear version.  Why?  Because of this very issue.  PWM can get better performance on straight analog engines, that's why it exists, but it can create havoc on engines with complicated electronics.

 

The way to avoid problems is, when you buy trains from any manufacturer (Especially ones that have sound and control installed), confirm with your dealer/the manufacturer/people in the know, what good power supplies are to use and go with what they recommend. 

 

The only reason this particular case drew out longer than it should was I didn't realize there was something else being used between the power supply and the TIU.  All I knew was something was outputting PWM power and the user didn't realize their Aristocraft Base Station was changing their power supply power from Linear to PWM.

 

 

 

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Ray,

Thank you for this info. Sure is a long way from 1930's Lionel O gauge!

I would like to convert all my G and 1 steam locos to simple linear (analog?).

All battery powered.

But to keep it simple (hah) use a seperate, simple radio control unit out of a flying model airplane to provide electricity and control to the sounds and the most humoungeous steam generator available.

Is such a dual system possible? I see the controls of both systems being operated by me at the same time.                                            

Can you produce such a dual system?

What do you think?

Thanks,

Stephen Auslender

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Hi there you electronic wizzards and happy new year!

 I was glad to read you Stephen, because I too am an old geezer, I started out in three rail coarse scale O gauge with Hornby and Jep (French manufacturers) and remember well the old odor of Ozone and sparks that used to go with playing trains back in the fifties. As I had one signal, I often turned the lights off and dreamed.... the sparks were part of the symphony.

Anyways and much later on in life, I tried DCS and actually after much communication and a huge amount of help from Raymond managed to make it work on my outdoor pike for a couple of years. The protocol which had to be implemented and strictly adhered to, for things to work correctly and not go bezirks (throw my brain in the bag, my wife really did think I was going bezirks for a while..) wazs of a fantastic complexity almost erasing the advantages of DCS. And yet after one blunder (I didn't follow protocol...) I fried two boards on my A B A F3 set. which Raymond had just repaired for me two years prior. So the result was to disconnect the TIU revert to Bridgewerks + Aristo craft ten amps train engeneer in linear mode, and rewiring the F3 for analog mode. And you know what: My wife doesn't want to send me to the asylum any more. and I am happy, although I can't blow the whistle any more Bert!

 But thanks to Raymond formidable help I was able to make it work... So hurray for Raymond without which I would probably be in an institution by now...

 Happy new year to all.

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