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Did Aristo-Craft Really Introduce 1:29 Scale?


Chuck
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Well really this will be more of a Lionel vs. Aristo-Craft. The general consensus in the large scale train world is that Aristo-Craft started the 1:29 scale movement. That is what Lewis Polk himself has stated many times.

 

Here's an example of this history taken from Wikipedia...

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  • 'A' scale. Uncommon term for 1:29 scale first used by AristCraft for modeling standard gauge prototypes on 45mm track. Incorrect scale/gauge but proportionally a similar size to other popular brands of the time.

 

According to the TCA website about Aristo-Craft here Aristo-Craft History this line grabbed my attention...

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In 1988 Aristo-Craft teamed with Railway Express Agency, Inc. (REA) and created a new scale of 1:29 for trains running on 45mm 'G' gauge track.

 

And this line...

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These trains were originally created for branding and sale by Lionel.

 

Whoa! Originally created for branding by Lionel??!! I have never in over half a century of being involved with model trains ever heard of that! In the late 90's there was an article published by I think Classic Toy Trains magazine that had an in depth interview with the Lionel design engineer that created the Atlantic and there was NO mention of Aristo-Craft. To really find out if Lionel was working with Aristo one would have to speak with the head of Lionel back then Richard Kughn.

 

Personally I think Lewis Polk was disillusioned into thinking he was Joshua Lionel Cowen the creator of Lionel Trains. Reason I think this is Aristo-Craft was headquartered in Irvington, NJ. such as Lionel ...But that's for another story!

 

Okay so Aristo-Craft Trains teamed with REA Inc./ Delton in 1988...Delton made 1:24 scale trains. So when did the first actual 1:29 scale trains emerge from Aristo?? The TCA article doesn't say. From what I can find seems the FA diesel was introduced first under the Aristo-Craft banner??

 

Anyway I have a 1989 Lionel Large Scale Toy Fair Catalog that lists the 0-4-0, 0-6-0 and the 4-4-2 Atlantic along with numerous rolling stock, track & building kits. All those items surely didn't appear in 1989...I'd think a few years before.

 

Next I'll show that the Lionel Atlantic is a 1:29 scale piece.

 

 

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I forgot to mention in the above post that I discredit that TCA article as it states the NW2 was made by Aristo-Craft...when as we all know it's a USA Trains creation!! :blink:

So when somebody says they're a TCA member I'm like yeah...so what??!!

 

Speaking about USA Trains, they started production in 1988 with the 1:24 scale American Series under the name Ro Trains...Charles Ro definitely beats out Aristo-Craft trains as to whom manufactured first.

I believe this to be a 1989 Ro catalog..

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But onto Lionel...

Here's my dealer sign...

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Here's the book that I'm using to determine the scale of the Lionel Large Scale 4-4-2 Atlantic...

 

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Here's the line drawings...

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Now I'll start in with the boring calculations from the above drawings..

 

Overall engine length from rear tender buffer to front pilot beam is 38' 10-1/2". 38' x 12" =  456' + 10.5" = 466.5" / = 16.086" say 16-5/64 to 16-3/32".

The Lionel Atlantic measures at roughly 16" as there is no rear tender buffer...close enough for me!

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Driver diameter is shown as 80" so that 80" / 29 = 2.75" well really 2.75862" but who's counting?

I have extra driver tires and they measure 2.650" so they're .010" to small or .010 x 29 = .290" to small in the 1:1 world...eh they wore down 1/4"..:Slightly_Smiling_Face_Emoji(24x24):

 

Engine width is shown at 10' across the cylinders. 

10' x 12" = 120" / 29 = 4.1379" ...I measure 4-1/8" or 4.1250" across the models cab back as it's the same width as running boards and cylinders. I could fudge it wider and make numbers spot on but close enough for me.

 

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The plans show an overall height from top of railhead to top of smokestack as 15'.

Again 15' x 12" = 180" / 29 = 6.206" tall...say a hair under 6-1/4...close enough for me!

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Overall engine + tender length...Engine is 38' 10-1/2" and tender is shown as 29' 7"...that drawings shows a different tender but that's all I have to work with.

Again engine is 38' x 12 = 456" = 10.5" = 466.5" / 16.086"

Tender is 29' x 12" = 348" + 7" = 355" / 29 = 12.241" 

16.081" + 12.241" = 28.322" or I'll round that up to 28-3/8" as tender to engine distance can change depending on our models drawbar length etc.

 

Again I'd say the Lionel Atlantic is spot on for the 28-3/8" total length :Slightly_Smiling_Face_Emoji(24x24):

 

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Here's the engine that I used for some of the measurements...

My custom painted and lettered for the Union Pacific version...

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I have a few of the Atlantics as I do like them! They can be bought cheap and with some improvements can be a real puller!

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To wrap up I just presented what facts I could find. I really believe that Lionel beat Aristo-Craft to the punch with introducing 1:29 scale. If it took Lionel 2 years to engineer, design, cut tooling and bring to market the Atlantic then that pushes the actual date back into like 1987 if not earlier.

 

Why Lionel switched to 1:32 scale for the GP7, 9 & 20 is beyond me.

 

Where all the tooling for the old Lionel large scale line went is a mystery. Theory I came up with is in the early 90's Lionel moved production from Michigan to China. Lionel couldn't take the entire Mt. Clemens factory with them so they had a huge auction. I'd speculate that the large scale tooling was all sold and subsequently scrapped as none ever surfaced in the last say 15 - 20 years. The USA Trains ore hopper was/ is old Lionel tooling but those haven't been made for like 10 years now.

 

 

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After digging thru some files I found a Lionel Atlantic instruction sheet dated 1988.

Also it's kind of amazing that Aristo-Craft, Lionel, MDC & Ro/ USA Trains all started manufacturing within a few years of each other. Could also probably add Great Trains/ American Standard and others such as Roberts Lines into the mix?

 

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Interesting discussion about who was first through the gate.

Without doubt Lewis Polk with his REA team up and subsequent Aristocraft product line, firmly put the 1:29 scale on the world wide map.  Lionel, as far as Europe was concerned, was not highly featured nor were Ro Trains and the subsequent USAT marque.  You could order Charlie's product through a dealer in the UK but Aristo had the foresight to use Bachmann, who was already well known and established in the UK, as his product outlet.  Aristo was well represented and readily available from Bachmann until around 2011 when things seemed to soured a little.  I bought a fair amount of Aristo through Bachmann UK retail stockists.  Good prices and generally a quick delivery.

It is recorded that Charlie Ro was just as disappointed, as many others were, when Aristo closed down.  Not only did he act as manufacturer, he was also a retailer and he must have had decent sales of Aristo as well as his own products.

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  • 1 month later...

About 7 years ago, when I started modeling the Pennsy I bought a Lionel Atlantic to see what could be done with it. I would say that it is very close to 1/30 scale or what the British call tenmille scale (ten milimetre to 1 foot) It ran relatively well although the aluminum tires oxidized so fast, that slow running could not be made reliable. Also there was a too large gap between the drivers thus making the overall length look like 1/29th scale as well as the oversize couplers and draw bar. Besides it is fitted with a tender more correct for Lines West locomotives. Now some did run in the west end of the PRR as Fred Westing 's book describes a fast run with one on the Detroit Arrow; but this tender is longer than the original low side tender. All these features make it longer than it really is. I scaled down the drawings and the actual scale dimensions of the Lionel locomotive. True the cylinders are almost 1/29th scale but that is a very common practice for manufacturers to widen this dimension, as our model wheel treads are much wider than the prototype AAR scale dimension, and the sideplay is almost a big as scale size one.

 After considering a rebuild into a more exacting model I sold it as hopeless for my 1/32 scale endeavour. It made a kid happy! Soon after or around that time Accucraft through Jason Kovac and the Train Department announced a live steam 1/32 scale E6 Atlantic which fitted my bill to a T. About the beginings of 1/29 th scale I know little and care even less! 1/32 is the correct scale for me. And I do prefer my steamers steam driven.

 The only photo of it that I still have is shown next to my GG1 in the indoor terminus, it had been moderatly reworked with chicken coop pilot, proper PRR headlight, Keystone etc. The other photo is posed of my Accucraft E6 in a pose very reminiscent of Fred Westing's book cover painting.

Best wishes to all

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  • 3 weeks later...
 
 

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