Screwy Nick Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Played trains to test the Crest Train Engineer I dusted off this morning Found one of my Aristocraft #6 turnout frog has lost contact in one direction, had to be removed for repair. To the point: the little allen head SS screws for the track joiners CAME RIGHT OUT without a struggle. The track was elevated January 07 (previously ground) and haven't had a continuity problem anywhere till just today. The only cleaning on the track has been wiping down after staining the decking. Kudo's to a great product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Some of mine are getting older. I ran short jumper wires to help the switches. If you use rail clamps like I do, you can use those clamps to attach the wire jumpers. I made mine pretty short as they connect to the closest power points. Someday, I should take one off and snap pictures of what I did. It's good practice when building layouts in any gauge, to help the switches power paths when they're required to carry larger amp loads. I like to run large consists with many engines drawing power from the rails. Some switches can't carry all those amps even when new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 15, 2021 Author Share Posted January 15, 2021 Joe, thank you for the tip. I do use and like rail clamps. I used them for power connections to the track every other joint. The only problem I had loosening them was the build up of stain in the Allen socket. Switch is the #6 which as a micro switch underneath to direct power to the frog depending on the switch position. The micro switch is what is now defective. Looking on line for replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 I disable (remove) those switches and my engines do fine. If you get a sticky switch, it can short out your track. Those wire power runs underneath is what rotted out on a few of mine. So adding power jumpers eliminates the need for them, under the switch to carry power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 15, 2021 Author Share Posted January 15, 2021 Joe, you said you run large locomotives, so you wouldn't need powered frogs. For shorter frame locomotives (the baby Shark) the #6 has long frogs, and without power it will stall. Also that little device under the straight rail that looks like a capacitor is really a breaker to protect the frog from shorts, gives a temporary open, and the frog is isolated from the rest of the rails. Made a functional schematic of the turnout and ordered what I believe will be the correct make/break design of the micro switch, will know for sure Wednesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 I always thought the frog switch was a on-on version? not make or break on-off? I did not test this. The only engine that shows issues on these unpowered frogs is my USA dockside. Because it's the only one, I'd modify it before every switch I own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 Joe, didn't say on-off. The switch has 3 terminals Common/NC/NO. it has to open one side to close the other, would otherwise cause short. The micro switch bounces the frog power from one power rail to the other depending on the rail position. The turnouts don't need modification out of the box, mine worked fine 3 years on ground and 13 years elevated. Only after the contact wore out did it stop working. This is the first year with and issue, and only this one, the other 3 are still working just fine. The Docksider is a short frame loco so it would feel the non powered frog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 21 hours ago, Screwy Nick said: J what I believe will be the correct make/break design of the micro switch, make or break statement told me you were thinking on and off??? on/on meant that it would throw for correct power routing. Not meant to be picky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 Not picky, misunderstood words can lead to wrong parts, at least. Working in electronics as my craft never heard of on/on but now that you explain what you meant, ON in one direction, throw switch and ON in the other direction. YES. With relays, which this really is, NO (Normally Open when relay is at rest, no current flow). when the switch is thrown it Closes, current flows. NC (Normally Closed when relay is at rest current flows), when the switch is thrown it becomes open, no current flow. It doesn't state in the description, but it has to be Break before Make other wise there would be momentary shorts and burn the contacts. Have had to chase circuits through banks of relays to find out why something isn't doing what it is supposed to do, designation on the schematic read wrong and could spend hours barking up the wrong bank. ANYWAY. Hope you have as much fun as I do with trains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Someday, I'll have to get one up on the bench again and have a closer look. I saw an old post on Ray's site and followed it. I removed those switches. I never did any investigation on what they actually do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 Joe, do you still have those switches? And what was the reason for removing them? OR can you direct me to where I can see those posts? You got my curiosity cooking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 Soaking the rail clamps in Acetone to loosen the old stain, looks like something out of a Sci Fi movie. Found a setting on the camera MACRO, get some real close up's with it. Close up on the relay that controls the frog. Can see the melting points which will make taking it apart easier to see exactly what failed, contact? moving parts? Tested the other 3 #6's and all work fine AT THIS TIME. Ordered enough relays to replace them when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Yes that was ugly whatever was in the jar! Another idea is maybe could go with say either LGB or a Piko manual switch machine and use the add-on signal controller to power the frog. My line of thinking is everything would be readily accessible and waterproof. I don't know if that would all work as needs more research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 Chuck, that 'mung' rinsed right off with hot water so can re-use them. The alternative to the relays is certainly worth looking into. Would be easy to make the wire connections as they are held under screws, just extend from under the turnout. Will look into that while waiting for the relays incase they are the incorrect size or make/break sequence. THANK YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 I'm like a kid with a new toy, that Macro feature shows things I can't see with my naked eye. The interior is pristine. The contacts plainly seen are still shiny, no sign of arcing. Appears it wore out mechanically, not enough throw left to make contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 #6 Switch - Removing power from frog (rayman4449.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Joe, thank you for searching and finding the article. I was not aware of all the problems other were having with them, I've never even had a burp from mine. At least Aristocraft thought ahead and put that little poly fuse device in the circuit JIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 As promised the relays/micro switches arrived yesterday. While the contact positions and differental travel are correct, as you can see (from the end one) the tabs are much too long Could modify the rods that go to the connections on the frog and rails, or replace with insulated wire, but chose to drill and cut the tabs. Extremely frustrating and costly, broke 2 drill bits, small piece of paper towel and masking tape to stop the bleeding. Also, the holes for the mounting screws are much too small, don't know if they can be enlarged without breaching the interior wall. Bench testing with ohm meter shows they function as orignal equipment. Will apply a smear of conductive grease to my rail clamps and joiners and re-install it. Need more research to find a better fit but these will do for now. Will be playing trains most of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Test: straight DC track power, this is the one truck loco that brought my attention to the defective frog, I can't ask for more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 thank you, I'll take a bow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 Someone on another forum implied I wasn't going slow enough. Please note the lights didn't even flicker, as will happen on just dirty track. Also this truck only has sliders, USAT sent me side frames with the bushings and axle pickups missing, long story. Anyway, I'm happy with the outcome, even if he isn't. Sean taught me years ago, "no pic, it didn't happen". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Slow learner , not a slow worker .. How are the fingers ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwy Nick Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 Healing, thank you. Finger prints have changed I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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