The Saga of my USA Trains Big Boy

[benshell]

Ray, I've heard about the suspension issue as well. I haven't taken apart anything to do with the wheels or suspension, and have decided at this point to at least try and run the locomotive on my track first, but I've considered I might have to take things apart again.

[benshell]

In my last update I mentioned fixing one more major problem that fortunately was easy to fix. While working on other things I noticed there were some holes in the chassis that I didn't know what they were for. It didn't take long to realize there were five missing screws that were supposed to hold the chassis together! Had I ever handled another USA Trains Big Boy I would have known something was wrong! But I had just assumed the Big Boy was built a lot like a prototypical steam locomotives, where the boiler is allowed to float on the frame a little to allow for expansion. I thought the USA Trains design seemed poor and especially difficult to handle but I while I was looking carefully for bent or broken parts I somehow never considered what was missing altogether!

 

I did, however, find some extra screws stuck to the smokebox door magnet. This explains where they should have gone!

 

That said, two of the five screw holes where badly striped so I retapped them for 10-32 (and a deeper thread too). The other holes seem to have lost a thread or two as well, but I didn't think retapping was necessary.

 

With the chassis properly assembled this solved the problem of the steam lines that had fallen off and didn't seem to fit securely! It also solved a problem of the rear motor/gearbox coupling slipping off. And, it partially solves the problem of this locomotive being extremely difficult to lift securely!

 

 

 

 

 

The question now, of course, is were the original screws already loose or complete free when the locomotive was shipped? It will probably always be a mystery.

 

I've also done a little work here and there on the chassis to reattach a valve gear linkage, reattach the steam pipes that had fallen off, and I've done a little touchup paint here and there.

 

And with that, all known mechanical issues all solved!

 

Next up: I've started working on electronics!

[benshell]

The first thing I like to do for DCC/sound installs is get the speakers mounted. I'm using one Visaton FRS5 speaker and one Phoenix 2" "football" speaker. The Phoenix speaker is smaller and lower quality than the Visaton, but I couldn't fit in two FRS5 speakers. I considered a Visaton FRSW5 which is shorter, but it has a square hole pattern that didn't match up. I've been thinking about how to create baffles for these speakers for quite awhile. Originally I was thinking I'd make a rectangular enclosure for them using sheets of styrene or other plastic, as I've done for other locomotives. However in the Big Boy that'd make it impossible to use the existing screw holes for attaching the speakers. Height is also very limited, so I was concerned that a cylindrical baffle wouldn't leave much air space in the enclosure, but I decided to just try it and see how it sounds. I went on a search around the house and garage under I found that some vitamin bottles were about the right size. I cut two of them slightly oversize with a hacksaw and sanded to fit (on a full sheet of rough sandpaper). I used hot glue to seal it up. The result fits in the locomotive (barely!)

 

 

 

 

I've done a sound test and it sounds great! I will post a video soon.

[Chuck]

Dang Ben it's coming alive!!

 How long you been working on it?

[Rayman4449]

Looking good!  By the time you are done you will know this engine as intimately as anyone and have gained the confidence to tackle just about any problem you encounter.

[benshell]

Chuck, I started working on it last July or August after UPS came through with an insurance check and Charles Ro did not come through with the replacement chassis they quoted me. That's when I decided to fix it myself. It has been a low priority project until recently though, as I just finished my 20' diameter mainline and I'd like to run it for a big meet coming next month, if it will run reliably on my track. (I need to find out very soon!)

 

Ray, Thanks! I know there are others who've done a lot of work on these engines as well, but it feels good to no longer be afraid to work on it.

 

And now for the first video. Here is the chassis running on rollers with the QSI Titan installed. It has the new Q3 "Emulator" sound files that are very impressive, and it will likely sound even better outside on grades due to the "sound of power" that varies the sounds with the actual load. Here on the rollers I have the "sound of power" cranked up to about halfway, and during the test I enabled the Heavy Load function to demonstrate some of the sound variation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MU4_-sa2G4

[benshell]

Well, I ran the Big Boy outside for the first time this evening! I have some good news and bad news:

 

1) The good news is that it ran very smoothly and cleared both bridges that I was concerned about. I have two bridges on curves that are narrow and definitely need to be widened at some point. I thought sure I'd have to do it before running the Big Boy, but it clears, barely! The Big Boy is quite tall and the boiler actually swings out OVER the edge of one of the bridges while the pilot has plenty of clearance. It's a little close for comfort though!

 

2) The bad news is that after running about 50 feet it starting tripping my DCC circuit breaker (built into my MERG booster). I found that the engine/tender plug was loose, so I thought maybe I plugged it in backwards. But nope, that wasn't the case, although I found that there is a problem with the connector not staying in! Then I thought I'd just leave the tender unplugged, but then I found SPARKING between the engine and tender, and the circuit breaker continued to trip.

 

With the tender removed completely the engine ran fine.

 

I guess I need to figure out where BOTH the engine and tender frames are not properly isolated from the rails! I thought I'd checked that after Chuck's thread about his Big Boy engine pickups, but I guess I didn't check thoroughly enough, or else is an intermittant problem. After all, it did roll down the track about 50 feet before this happened.

[markoles]

DAng Ben!  Maybe it is a loose wire somewhere?

[benshell]

DAng Ben!  Maybe it is a loose wire somewhere?

 

Maybe! But wouldn't it have to be in the engine AND tender? Just ONE of them being grounded to ONE rail shouldn't be a problem, right? And even BOTH of them grounded to the SAME rail should be okay, I think. And for that matter, if I just add an insulator between the engine and tender I'd solve the problem too, right?

 

So far I've verified that the engine IS grounded to the right rail, but I haven't gone further. The tender doesn't seem to be grounded to either rail though, and I have never opened up the tender so I'm not even sure how.

[Rayman4449]

Great you got it running!

 

Uggh on the shorting.  We saw some sort of intermittent contact between a driver and the body on Chuck's USA Big Boy when he ran it here for a train show a number of years ago. (it was affecting a piece of electronics that was grounded to the tender frame is how we found out.)  I don't recall if he isolated where it was making contact would have to ask him.  I guess the thing to do is see where the wheels on the tender are making contact with the frame.  Maybe need to add nylon spacers on the tender wheels to keep them away from the frame?  Will be interested to hear where the contact points are as I will modify my USA BB the same.

[markoles]

I was thinking it might be a wire inside the tender.  Not sure what kind of electronics are in there. 

[Rayman4449]

I should clarify the electronics in the tender was something added aftermarket.  It could be a wire.  Based on what I've seen on this and other die-cast/all metal engines, it's likely to be where some piece of the cast body is barely brushing a wheel.  Just one of the things have to watch for on all metal engines.  Once it's figured out I will note this on my website because I think it's worth having people look at and if necessary modifying their engines.  

[benshell]

Ray, that makes sense! The problem started on a "tight" (~19 foot diameter) curve. But on my workbench I'm using straight track, of course. Although I can still reproduce the problem with the engine grounded to the right rail, so I think I have two problems to solve to get this right.

 

Oh well, I need to turn the tender upside down to install a Kadee coupler anyway. Any idea how to remove the coal load without pieces of coal falling out?

[Rayman4449]

My first guess is the driver is rubbing a brake shoe. What I would do is put the engine on it's back and slide each driver side to side to it's maximum range each way and look to see if it the tire (wheel rim) barely touches a part of the frame like a brake shoe or something.  I'd go down the line and if you dont see anything then move to the lead and trailing wheels and do the same.  I bet something will jump out at you that you may need to grind down just a bit with a dremel or something.  Probably won't need much. I really think it will be something you will see with a visual inspection.

 

Now I'm not sure if you have the problem originally found by Chuck about the wheel power pickups being too far off center where the rub the actual driver (not the tire).  The reason that is a problem (for those not familiar) is the electrical insulator is between the tire and the driver so each driver and axle is all electrically connected.  As the engine runs eventually it will likely cause the brush to wear through the paint and eventually just cause a direct short at each location.  http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/index.php?/topic/187-usa-trains-129-big-boy-manufacturing-problem/  

 

On the coal load, for the Hudson what I do is push down on the front or rear as I recall and it raises the other end which makes it easier to get the load out.  

 

Raymond

[Chuck]

Wow Ben...That sucks about the thing becoming electrically "hot" somehow. Did you happen to pull the bottom covers and take a look at the wiring job around the drivers?? Not a pretty sight. Like Ray says something somewhere is touching like a brake shoe touching a wheel. One of my problems was the drive axles would shift when run in reverse and make everything "hot". Nice engines but a PIA to keep running.

 

To remove the coal load I use a magnet...it'll pop the metal tray that holds the coal load. 

[enginear joe]

 Is she running smooth yet? These things can get frustrating I know first hand.

This post is great to follow though. It looks pretty well built anyways. I didn't know that it had two motors.

 I wish I had one of these. I've got way too much already, and more modern stuff on order. So this post helps my TAD ( Train acquiring disease ).

[benshell]

Yes! Sorry for the delay--I'll be open Sunday, June 22, for the West Coast Regional Meet so I'm working like crazy to get ready for that. I'll post a more thorough update next week. The short of it is that I've now run the Big Boy around my mainline twice and it runs great except for where it hits a couple obstacles and derails in two places! I'll be working on those trouble areas of track tomorrow. I haven't hook up some lights yet though--the firebox lights, cab light, front marker and number board lights, and running lights. And it doesn't have a smoke unit yet. But I can live without these features for my open house this Sunday.

[enginear joe]

 Well....good luck!

I hope all goes well. Things always crop up on me when I'm not ready for them.

 Never say sorry to me. You have to fix it. I'm just along for the ride!

She just looks like a beast. With all the troubles you've gone thru, you deserve a good showing!!

[Rayman4449]

Good luck Ben!  From your perspective how bad are those areas of track?  I'm asking because the overall rigidity of the engine was something that I have contemplated tinkering with, mainly the driver suspension springs. Back when I had turnouts on the sides of my ovals my engine was derailing going through the turnout each time and it was very very level and had a hard time understanding why it was derailing. (The only thing I could come up with was a combination of engine rigidity (suspension between boiler and top of the top engine set + really stiff driver springs) along with the more prototypical driver flanges.  Because I ended up deciding to just keep mine on display I never really tried to make modifications to either the engine or the layout but all my other engines cruised through that area and at high speeds.  This would derail going slowly.  After you have had some time running the engine on the layout, I'll be interested to hear if you feel driven to look into it at all.  Without a doubt can get the engine running on any layout with 20ft curves but it definitely requires more gradual changes in any variations in the track.  Keep us posted!

 

(I still like mine in the display case in the living room where I can look at it everyday  )

[benshell]

Hi everyone, I'm here to report SUCCESS with running my Big Boy! Last week I continued to have trouble with it derailing, until Saturday night when I was looking at it closely on an elevated section of track and I noticed the tender was leaning forward a little. Around curves the body of the tender was hitting the tender truck frame and pushing it off the track with anything less than a perfect 20' diameter curve. I found that when I reassembled the tender I missed a washer between the spring and the tender truck! It was right there on my workbench. However after installing that I thought it still didn't seem very balanced so I added two additional washers. And this point it was midnight before my big open house during the West Coast Regional Meet, but this was the last minute fix it needed. I ran the Big Boy pretty much continuously ALL DAY yesterday, from 10am to 7pm, with no problems at all! Well, except for hitting a bridge and almost hitting a tree. It doesn't hit the bridge in the morning or evening but during the heat of the day I guess expansion changed the situation and the near miss turned into a slight impact with the underside of the some piping near the front of the Big Boy. It will be easy to do some paint touch up there.

 

Still no photos or videos, but a lot of people took them (including family and friends who helped with the event) so I'm attempting to get copies now.

 

At the end of the day I decided to do some experimenting. First I tried to pull 48 cars (I'd been running with 21 cars all day). The Big Boy didn't hesitate on level or 2.5% uphill grades, but there's one spot where the long 2.5% grade hits 3% and that's when the wheels started slipping. Then I tried to double head with my Aristo-Craft Mallet but I forgot I still haven't body mounted the coupler on the Mallet tender, so that didn't last long.

[enginear joe]

 After seeing your pics and what you went thru, it's great to hear she ran so good. There are times when I ask why I bother. Other times, I'm smiling like a kid in a candy store.

 I don't know your layout or control system. I find it much better to add a pusher on long trains to handle the stresses.

[benshell]

 After seeing your pics and what you went thru, it's great to hear she ran so good. There are times when I ask why I bother. Other times, I'm smiling like a kid in a candy store.

 I don't know your layout or control system. I find it much better to add a pusher on long trains to handle the stresses.

 

Yep, that's pretty much the case huh! My previous open house was one of those "why bother" times when a lot of things went wrong. But this time (by biggest open house event) I'm really glad to have had a very successful day. It's not just that the Big Boy ran great, but also I had a lot of great volunteer help and my control system (DCC) worked perfectly. I've been on a mission towards obtaining a reliable control system for years now. It started with two different underpowered analog DC power packs, followed by a 75 MHz Aristo-Craft Train Engineer with no range (and I mean zero range at all), followed by a homemade Bluetooth analog DC controller (worked well, but limited range), followed by an lo:duino and OpenLCB DCC system (very early prototype which was unreliable). This was all while waiting for Zimo to release their long awaited MX10 (still not released!). Then I gave up on them and started using MERG DCC which I still use and love, but had some hiccups along the way because I was wiring my bus incorrectly without terminating resistors and my DCC runs were far too long. Now I have three of the MERG 10A boosters in close proximity to the track. And my system has now been successfully tested with nine hours of running on a hot day!

 

Anyway, back on topic, I should have tried the Mallet as a pusher... I didn't think of that! I'd be slightly worried about the pusher pushing too hard since they aren't perfectly calibrated, but they are pretty close and with QSI decoders they will adjust themselves a little bit to work together.

[benshell]

Here are a couple short video clips a friend took during my open house:

http://youtu.be/IhvcE0LZ0Xs

[Rayman4449]

Looks great and great news!!  Very smooth running engine.  In the one open house I had, it's when I seem to have all my issues.  I would go out day after day and run my trains without incident and when you have 100 people in the yard, things that have NEVER happened before, happens!  The effort is all well worth it cause when you work the bugs out it will run as needed and run without issue.  Can't imagine that BB impacting something at the front like that tho hehe, that's a lot of weight behind it

 

For my education when you have time can you explain a little more about how you had to wire the layout?  What was happening with the runs too long?  What technical specs are you supposed to stay within?  Also so is it each block is supposed to be terminated with a terminating resistor?

[benshell]

Looks great and great news!!  Very smooth running engine.  In the one open house I had, it's when I seem to have all my issues.  I would go out day after day and run my trains without incident and when you have 100 people in the yard, things that have NEVER happened before, happens!  The effort is all well worth it cause when you work the bugs out it will run as needed and run without issue.  Can't imagine that BB impacting something at the front like that tho hehe, that's a lot of weight behind it

 

For my education when you have time can you explain a little more about how you had to wire the layout?  What was happening with the runs too long?  What technical specs are you supposed to stay within?  Also so is it each block is supposed to be terminated with a terminating resistor?

 

Thanks Raymond! Yes, all the problems I've had to deal with and fix were finally all worth it when I got it working reliably for this open house! This was our third open house, and the first open to those outside our club.

 

I gave a list just to emphasis all the very stages of control system disasters I've worked through, but yes I can detail the DCC problems!

 

1) One problem with long DCC bus runs is inductance. Just two months ago I had one my and only DCC booster in the garage with 10 gauge wire running out to the track. It was about 100 feet, and then that powered a 150 foot loop with just a single track connection. It worked perfectly! So I didn't really understand all the cautions mentioned in articles like http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm. Then I finished my expansion to a 500 foot loop literally the day before my previous open house (in April). I didn't have time to run more feeders, but I ran an engine around for a couple hours while I was cleaning up the yard and it worked great. So I thought, "wow, this is too easy". Well, the next morning I tried to run a locomotive with a train--just 10 or 15 cars--and it couldn't make it. The further it got from the power it more it just suddenly stopped. I was able to run one engine with just a few cars, but anything more and everything would just stop! I thought it was dirty track, so for the next couple weeks of running I keep trying to clean the track. But that didn't really make sense. Now that I've learned about inductance it's amazing anything ran at all! Just having 100 feet of parallel wires running to the layout is a huge no-no with DCC.

 

2) Another problem I had was intermittent failures of my MERG DCC system, including on the day of my April open house! It uses a layout control bus called CBUS which connects components like the computer interface, command station, turnout controllers, and hardwired throttles. Since I just had a computer interface and command station I wired them together, not realizing this bus needed terminating resistors. Somehow mine had still worked without them until the weather got hotter (that's my guess on the reason). I was relying on the internal resistance of the ICs, which vary greatly. So my "beginners luck" came back to bite me until a lot of help on the MERG forums led to the problem and solution!

 

So what I have now is 100 feet of 24V DC (not DCC) running from the garage to the layout, and 100 feet of CAT 5 carrying the DCC signal. There I have a DCC booster connected to my original 150 foot loop. Then I'm running both DC and the DCC signal another 75 feet to another outdoor enclosure where I have two more DCC boosters each connected to about 150 feet to 200 feet of track. Each of these three districts has two or three feeders from the booster to the track using 10 gauge and/or 12 gauge wire which is twisted together to minimize inductance. I could still use more feeders, especially in one district. Evidence of bad wiring is that shorting the track on the last 20 feet of track furthest from one booster does not trip the circuit breaker still. But earlier when I was running the DCC all the way from the garage the circuit breaker didn't trip ANYWHERE on the layout. I thought there was something wrong with my circuit breaker. I'm very lucky to have not blown out any decoders. I have had shorts but my QSI decoders seem to be pretty resilient!

 

So my wiring is not perfect yet, and may be even worse than I realize once I get an oscilloscope (on my wish list), but it's SO much better and I can now run several trains at once anywhere on the layout without running out of power!