markoles Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Hi guys, In 1989, I went to the old HL Child & son's shop in Northhampton, MA on our annual trip there during Valentines Day Weekend. It used to be a huge hobby shop that had lots of G scale trains, plus all the other scales, and dolls, etc.. That year, I was shocked to see 4 Lionel large scale Atlantics on the wall, and for something like $189 a piece. Great Northern, Chessie Steam Special, NYC, and Santa Fe. After some deliberation, I plunked down all my Christmas and Birthday money for the Great Northern locomotive. I was amazed at the detail (this was 1989), and couldn't wait to run it. At that time, all I had was LGB: Stainz, a 2060 diesel, and the 2017D stainz-american. Those engines would handle about a half dozen of the LGB 2 axle cars I had on hand with the standard 4' dia curves with ease. Never had any issues with them. When I got the Atlantic out, and it dwarfed the other engines, I was super excited. Then, I applied power, and was underwhelmed. This big engine could barely handle the lone 3080 passenger car I had (the LGB 4 axle western car). Forget trying to run up any sort of a grade. And then, to add insult to injury, the locomotive stopped running forward. So, I sent it back to the shop for repair. 6 weeks later, the engine was returned to me, repaired. This time, I was more careful, but still managed to mess something up with regular 12 year old running. After the second failure and only about a week of actual play time with the engine, we took it back and turned that locomotive in to three aristo cars, an LGB combine, and a half circle of 1500 curves. But, after seeing how George Schreyer modified his to be a more consistent runner, I've been tempted to get another engine for short passenger trains. I've been able to resist the ones that show up periodically on eBay. Today, I got another 4-4-2 notice from ebay for one and it rekindled my interest. How may of you have had these engines and did some minor modifications make these in to reliable runners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I haven't had one but have had a similar interest just because it is so unique. I didn't realize they struggled pulling even a single car. Will be interesting to hear any info on this myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I remember some articles of some guys bashing them some and using Aristo Mike or Pacific blocks in them. Not sure where/when though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 About 10 years ago or so there was an article about the Lionel Large Scale 4-4-2. Seems it was in Classic Toy Trains and the article was basically an interview with the designer/ engineer of the Atlantic project for Lionel when they were in Michigan. He stated that the prototype model was built to tru-scale 1:32 size but the higher ups at Lionel, LLC thought it was too long so they had him redesign it shorter by removing one boiler course. That would be during the Richard Kughn era and I'd find it hard to believe that he'd want it shorter. That would also be about the time that Lionel, LLC started using Railsounds in there loco's. That also would be the era of the second (or third) bankruptcy so it's no wonder they were made kinda cheap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Chuck, It was a lot cheaper than the LGB mogul, but didn't hold a candle to the operating characteristics. Needed metal wheels on the engine and trailing trucks and tender wheels, too. Couda been a contenda! I had no idea it was short for 1/32, but never paid close enough attention. Hey, it has solid drivers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Robinson Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Hi, They're not to common over here in the U.K. but the chairman of my local G Scale Society branch obtained one a year or so ago in as new condition and asked me to tweak it a bit. On the tender I fitted trucks with metal wheels and pickups and superglued sound sensor magnets to one of the wheels. By luck the tender wheels chosen were half the diameter of the drivers so the chuff rate was about right. The sound board was that from an LGB Sumpter Valley Mallett as these boards can sometimes be purchased cheaply on German eBay. The loco was fitted with an LGB style Graupner 6V smoke unit fed via a cheap Chinese LM2596 module set to a suitable voltage. A bank of diodes was added to the motor circuit to increase the motor start voltage so that the smoke works O.K. at low speed. Finally I added a couple of bags of lead. This was given to me by a mate as thanks for sorting one of his locos. I think it can still be purchased if you claim to be a recreational diver. The owner is very pleased with the modified loco but it is only run occasionally, I very much doubt that it would be suitable for continuous daily running on, for example, a shop display layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Well, the good news is that the potential locomotive was sold in a lot and I didn't have the opportunity to purchase it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du-bousquetaire Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I am surprised at what you can read in some forums and I guess this one is just like the others. I have had a Lionel PRR atlantic because I model seriously the PRR in 1/32 scale. It is by no means undersize but a bit oversized (if compared to an Aster Pacific, it's boiler is a few 1/16th of an inch over diameter), but what surprised me the most was that you said it was shortened one course of the boiler! Because it has the motor between the axles with worms at each end the rigid wheelbase of the loco has been elongated about a couple of scale feet. Also the diameter of the drivers was enlarged a scale 6" which helps make it less conspicuous. I bought one to try to make it into a descent model of an E6 and after doing a few cosmetic things up front (putting a PRR style headlight and braket a Keystone number board on the smokebox front and a hen coop pilot), I gave up. not that the loco wasn't a smooth performer once tweaked it ran fine, although the aluminum wheel tires need cleaning on a daily basis, if one likes slow smooth starts, but because of this mechanical problem of the motor between the drivers its rigid wheel base couldn't be shortened, the drivers needed a lot of work done on them to make them look half way good, and the whole was the proportions OK for a hyppo (2-10-0 of class I1) and not a n E6 so I gave up and sold it to someone who wanted to set up a garden train for his son. Also there was a lot of work to correct the underside of the boiler. The cab would have had to be split in two to make it less wide and so on. Sometimes it is better toabandon a bad idea rather than to continue to obtain rather mediocre results. In model railroading, I think you have to make descisions. Another problem was due to the type of plastic used you couldnt glue it together nothing I tried melted the plastic to make a good bond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 although the aluminum wheel tires need cleaning on a daily basis, if one likes slow smooth starts I sold off 3 Lionel engines because of this very problem...those damn aluminum wheels! One day they'd work fine the next day nothing. No electrical contact between the wheels and the power pickup brushes unless they were cleaned. If they had power pickup skates then I may have kept them. I have 1 GP9 left that has K-Line drives installed...and that may be 1 Lionel to many Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 I forgot about the aluminum wheels. That isn;t going to work well with stainless track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Mark, To get them working reliably I'd say install power pickup wheelsets on the tender & loco trailing truck, possibly even the lead truck then tie them all together. I'm just going to avoid them....Like you did years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du-bousquetaire Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Way back a few years when I was modeling the SNCF in HO scale I built a Keyser (GB) white metal kit of a pershing 2-8-0. These were extremly common on French railways before and right through WW 2, and I needed a consolidation for my pike then. It had aluminum tired drivers and an awfull motor. I took the habit of cleaning the wheels (with a brass brush wheel cleaner) every day to try and get some decent operation from this otherwise very nice kit. Then noiticing that the drivers had axles the same (British dimensions) diameter as Romford drivers, I bought a set of Romford drivers for it. These have nickel silver tires, the transformation was incredible, I never had to clean them again. As at the time I had been building another white metal kit from a diferent manufacturer with a Portescap RG4 coreless motor and reductor, whose performances was mind blowing; I bought one for this loco too and installed it. It became one of my best performers on my stud hauling 30 freight cars most of which were Zamac heavy cars of older french type not available in plastic at speeds of 15 mph endlessly, and would crawl while switching. Now remember this was on an idoor pike, granted there is a bit more weight in gauge one helping the electrical contact but out of doors aluminum tires are hopeless unless you run on batteries. I gave up on the Lionel 4-4-2 because there was too much work to do to make something half way correct out of it, and this and the fact that the plastic couldn't be welded together like styrene or ABS made that a very long tedious job for a mediocre result. when you do a lot of scratchbuilding you learn that some gigs just aint worth the bother, and are too time consuming for what they will produce in the end. I had considered, just to give other modelers ideas, to fit an Aristo Craft pacific chassis in lieu of the Lionel one (although their wheels are awfull, and they don't really work so well either) I had also considered putting a Marklin Chassis but they didn't have the correct driver diameter. Buying another loco (or better a shell if I could get one on E Bay) to make all the lower half of the boiler beneath the running boards which is missing on the Lionel engine, Atlantics have the lower half of the boiler very much exposed and I wasn't satisfied with the Lionel "boiler wrapper flowing into the running boards aproach". shortening the boiler in the middle boiler ring, probably splitting the whole superstructure so as to thin it down a bit, and ditto to tender, redetailing just about everything, and possibly rebuilding the tender (and dolphin trucks) as the one Lionel provided isn't correct for an E 6 atlantic. And of course putting semi scale metal wheels all over and kadees. It amounted to almost as much work as scratch building... Then as luck would have it the Train Department announced their intention to produce one in live steam so that really confirmed my earlier choice. It remains never the less possible to do, especially if you know what solvent to use to bond the lionel plastic together correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Years ago I bought a Lionel 0-4-0 off eBay for cheap. When I received it I immediately put it on my indoor layout. It moved for about 10' and fell over. I sold it the very next week. So now I see Polks Generation Next selling 0-4-0 Christmas Sets for $449.00 which includes aluminum track??!! How many newbies will buy that set just to be let down by the track? Way to go Jonathan...That is definitely the way to bring in new folks to the hobby! Sell aluminum track with a track powered starter set! What the hell are you thinking?? http://polksgenerationext.com/product/holiday-special/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 Considering Trainworld is selling that loco for $99, and a power pack is $60, you could buy a lot of track for the difference. And Jonathan runs the website, Scott is running the company. I have also heard that PGN is not going to try and cut the dealers out this go-around. That's probably the reason your see the $449 price. Du: The problems I had with my Atlantic in the early 90s kept me away from all of the manufacturers except LGB until 1998, when I got an Aristo FA-FB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Mark, What I'm getting at is the couple that decide to buy that set for under the tree. Works fine tonight but tomorrow it won't move because that aluminum track is all oxidized. Those folks give up on large scale trains all together...all because Scott didn't package the thing with brass track Like the prices you stated add another $50.00 for track price difference (which is actually probably only $20.00) and have happy newbie customers. To me it looks like business as usual...but with a different name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Well let's see...poking around online looking thru the major dealers websites I don't see anybody carrying PGN Christmas starter sets...infact I don't see any PGN starter sets. But I do see Charles Ro selling USA Trains NW-2 starter sets which include a 4' x 5' oval of brass for $379.95 At Wholesale Trains I see Piko 0-6-0 starter sets with a 4' circle of brass track priced as low as $279.99 and a Christmas set for $319.99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Chuck, You're right, brass track seems like the way they should keep it. The USA starter set is probably one of the best out there, since you don't get a watered down locomotive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du-bousquetaire Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The choice of rail material and wheel rim material is most important in model railroading with electric track power, but it isn't the only issue. I have found from years of HO operation that having direct gears opposed to worm gear drive gives a nice flywheel effect which helps overcome spots of poor electrical contact. And in my latest HO doings before going to all gauge one, I found the importance of using coreless motors which have a very low current draw, these have become extremely standard in continental HO scale and O scale practice. Not so in the US practice it seems... The interest in these is this: That as they draw much less current, there is much less tendency to arc at the wheel to rail contact. The result of this is (at least in indoor HO): That you practically never have to clean your wheels or your track. This is a very nice feature. The only exception I have known to this, thus far is MTH gauge one which seems to have some pretty hefty motors that have a healthy appetite for amps yet their locos have a fabulous slow speed. I supect that this can be atributed to their having pick up shoes, and all the electronics and flywheel optic detectors, but it is a source of amazement and joy to this old hand at it. I found that even the quality of the nickel silver alloy used on wheel rims has an impact on HO locos. Nickel silver rails are nice but they have a greater resistance to current flowing in them meaning for us outdoor fellows, more feeders. I setled for brass. It needs fairly frequent cleaning (around every 10 days or so) but otherwise with rail bonding it does the job. I still cannot determine if my rail oxidises so fast because of oxidation or because we are situated on the path of landing jet liners, which on account that their jet engines are not at full power have a poor combustion and polute more because of this... When I was doing HO I remember needing to clean the rails if we had smokers over for dinner or a running session... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I use all stainless steel track and never clean it...by hand that is unless the trees start dumping sap on the rails. I love the shad but hate the messy trees In my findings the MTH engines draw way less amps then any other manufacturers design. If I convert a Aristo Dash-9 over to DCS w/ Protosounds2 it'll draw less then half the amps of say the same loco using a QSI sound decoder. Now USA Trains using stainless steel tires on the Hudson & Big Boy is really sweet as those never get dirty...and they just don't wear. My Hudson has over 20,000 scale miles and the wheels look brand new Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 OK, back to topic: I ended up picking up a Chessie System 4-4-2, with a sound system added for a whopping $95! Also, metal wheels for lead and trailing truck and metal wheels on the tender. Cleaned the wheels a little to test it, but will likely be adding power pick ups to improve power pick up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Brief update: I'm adding REVO control to this locomotive. The sound system is a PH Hobbies. There are 4 AA ni-cad rechargable batteries, which I can probably eliminate (since REVO runs on full track power). A reed switch on a tender axle takes care of the chuff; two more reed switches activate a bell and a whistle sequence. I will rewire those two to trigger from the revo board instead. I will take some pictures. Someone put a huge oval speaker in the tender and about 3lbs of lead in the boiler. I am going to add some shims for the drivers, as these move up and down easily, allowing for the wheels to go slightly out of quarter and binding the connecting rods. I'll play it safe and run the sound board with linear-ized power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 So I have been tearing in to this locomotive. I added extra zip ties to secure the motor. The previous owner had wired in an LGB smoke unit, and had used wire nuts, so isolating the motor was simplified. However, I note a couple of things: 1) The motor is labeled as a 12V DC motor. I run 24V DC on my railroad. Have any of you encountered issues with the Lionel 12v motor overheating or will it simply just draw more amperage? My Kalamazoo 4-4-0 has a 12V motor and Phil Jensen (HLW) suggested not running it at more than 12V. In testing, the Lionel 12V motor seems to run OK when I apply 21v from an LGB power pack. 2) When I run the locomotive forward, there is a bit of gear noise. When I run in reverse, it is really quiet. Any ideas? I greased the gears pretty well. 3) The headlight bulb got hot enough to make the headlight housing get a little soft. It's a clunky blobby headlight and I can swap it out for another, but perhaps I just need to add a bit of resistance to the line and it would be ok? Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 1) On the motor, you may run a constant 24v on the layout, but your control system controls the voltage to the motor so the motor won't necessarily see 24v unless you direct your control system to run at maximum speed. If you plan to run with just analog power, then you will be varying the power to engine and again likely wont be running at maximum voltage. But either way, the engine will achieve the designed/expected normal operating speed at the voltage it was originally designed for. (If it was designed to hit that speed at 12v then you likely wont find the need to provide more than 12v) I'm sure the engine was designed to run at an acceptable speed at these voltages so I doubt there will be any need to run the motor excessively beyond what it was designed for. I would assume that Lionel probably expected the motor would be run at 18v (perhaps not) but either way I wouldn't worry about overheating. I'd run it you should be fine. 3) On the headlight, I would definitely look at adding a resistor to get the temps down but it sounds like they may be using a high amp bulb. Hopefully you can find a right balance between brightness and heat, if not maybe need to look at an LED. As far as the right resistor just going to have to experiment with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Robinson Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 In addition to Ray's sound advice I'd like point out that a resistor could get rather warm, especially with a relatively high current bulb. If you go for an LED and use a 1k Ohm 1Watt resistor in series with it the LED and resistor should run cooler. However you'd need to add a diode such as an 1N4004 and connect the right way round to avoid blowing the LED. This would only light one way. If you want the LED to light in both directions of travel you'd need a diode bridge such as a W02M rather than a diode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoles Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ray and Neil, Thanks for the replies. I also messaged George Schreyer, who is using one of these Atlantics on his railroad, controlled with DCC. He indicated his output is peaked at 22V, and he has encountered no problems. I can run at reduced power, but other than drawing more amperage, I think we're probably ok. For the headlight, I was going to keep it simple. It is connected to the power inputs from the track, so it will always be "on". In addition to replacing the light itself, I was actually thinking about ditching the entire housing as well, in favor of something like Bachmann's big hauler sheet metal headlight. I see that I can purchase a headlight direct from Bachmann with the lighbulb installed (for the INDY 2-6-0) and that would look nice, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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