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ATSF streamliners - where?


SteamPower4ever
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Hi all.

 

Now that I have ordered an F7 ABBA set, I find myself looking for a suitable train for it. What to haul?

 

One option is of course some 100+ reefers, but somehow I keep flying in circles around the Super Chief or El Capitan ...  :D

Where do I get suitable 1:32 coaches for a Santa Fe ABBA F7 consist? MTH seems like the obvious choice, but to me it seems like the coaches they are offering were not used in the named trains. I'd really love (except maybe for the price tag) a set of streamliners like Kato has made in N scale, but I realize I'm stretching my imagination, here.

 

I am thinking maybe I should just settle for what is there, and get myself some MTH coaches for a no-name ATSF passenger train, and then get the Kato set and assemble a correct El Capitan in N-scale for the shelf. You know, for no other reason than ... well ... umm ... because I can??

 

Have El Cap/Chief coaches ever been made in 1:32 scale?

The coaches that MTH is offering in the 2013 catalog (and the previous batch too, for that matter) - where were they used?

 

Best regards,

Jens

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there's a site that may help, maybe not.

It's the SFe historical society where they list SFe consists and the names you mention. Maybe you could make a list of the equipment you desire from that?

 

http://www.atsfrr.net/resources/Internet/Consists/Index.htm

 

there's also a link on that page marked "excellent website". You may have seen this stuff already?

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Joe - what a goldmine of information  B)

I think I came across the atsfrr site on a search once, but never got in there.

 

Well, it seems like the MTH coaches are from the 'Chief', but they're only part of the train, and only up until the mid 50's.

Other than that, they've probably been shuffled around where they were needed, but it still leaves the dome and baggage cars out for a prototypical train.

 

Hmm ... need to think that one over for a while.

 

Thanks for the links  ;)

Jens

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Having scavenged the sites again, it looks a reasonable part of a mid-50s El Capitan (and other trains too) could be formed from the MTH models.

Does anyone know if there are prototype pictures on the web of these 44/48 seater coaches (#2816 - 2945) ?

 

Jens

 

Edit: Found pictures on the atsfrr site too. Had to go via Google, but hey ... any which way. MTH models look OK.

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The MTH models are 28 1/2", which scales to 76 feet. From what I can deduct on the web, these coaches were really 85 feet long.

The models on the MTH site appear a bit shorter to scale than equivalent models in the minor scales, too, but that can be deceiving.

 

Does anyone know if the MTH coaches are true to scale or shortened to handle tighter MR curves?

 

Jens

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 I think they are a model of older cars like C&O's etc, that were built back in the 50's roughly? I don't know their proper length but the MTH look close. I have the Amtrak versions that would have been repaints from the older RRs. I found a AMT #5263 that looks just like one of MTHs.

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They are hard to tell from each other, and that's why I'm obsessing about it ;)

Here's what I have found out so far from the two sites. The info is scattered all over, so it's slightly difficult to dig out, but I finally found it:

 

Coach #2816-2860, built 1953 for ATSF. 48 seats. Length 82'10"

Coach #2861-2911, built 1947 for ATSF. 44 seats. Length 82'10"  

Coach #2912-2945, built 1950 for ATSF. 44 seats, Length 82'10"

 

In the 2013 catalog, MTH is offering nos. 2861, 2900, 2930 and 2945. The earlier models are all in the 2800 range.

So it seems the MTH coaches are in fact shorter than scale. Hmm ...

 

Jens

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Hmmm, looks like maybe they just chose the wrong numbers? I'd have to research the others that are closer to the length. I hadn't seen that page before. The lengths look all over the place. That chart would be better if it had year built, and more model info.

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Exactly - they are all over the place.

 

You need to cross-refer with this page (Passenger Equipment Roster - third item from below in the left nav pane) where you get info about when the coaches were built, and when they were added to the ATSF fleet.

In the left nav pane, try also clicking El Capitan (or any of the others) for examples of train consist assignments through the years. Here it says that these series of coaches were indeed used for El Capitan in the years 1953-55.

 

So maybe we need a second source to confirm the length of the coaches. Or to cause further confusion ...

 

Geeks?

Us?

Naah :D

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look at the cars with the 77' length I guess? The have different numbers than MTH chose though. I see where you're getting the length from and agree that the MTH must have the wrong numbers. Maybe if you swapped out the number decals to the 77' you could live with that????

 I think they are close enough for me. Maybe they will release longer models down the road. I doubt it by the way they withdrew from G scale releases for a time. Have you looked at the new car press releases from Accucraft? they list at 30" (=80')

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Actually it makes sense to me if the coaches are shorter than scale. The F7s seem like reprints with upgraded electronics. Fine, they have the correct dimensions.

The coaches also seem like reprints, but this time from a 2004 (?) model, and I would not be surprised if they back then opted for a shorter than scale length to avoid problems in tight curves. Happened all the time in Europe also, but the trend is towards scale size coaches in all gauges.

Anyway, I bet that MTH decided simply to reprint the coaches, since a new mold would be too expensive. Those coaches will do nicely for many modelers, but not for me.

 

Renumbering the coaches won't do, because the window arrangement would be wrong, and they would only be good for El Capitan up to 1946, and the first F7s were built in 1949 ...

 

Yeah, yeah, I know, there's just no pleasing some people, but I like to have a "this could have been" feeling about my rolling stock (... he said while planning to use an ATSF F7 consist on a layout with a European theme)

 

Sigh!

 

No, what I would like to do is build a train that in itself is so close to the prototype that I'm happy with it. It's not an exact science, but I know I won't be happy with the MTH coaches.

 

Yes, I saw the Accucraft coaches, and they are gorgeous. They look much better length-wise, but ATSF is not mentioned, and there are no dome cars. They're kinda pricey too, if you need the entire El Capitan, so I haven't researched whether they can be used or not.

 

For now, I'll calm down and have fun with the F7s when they arrive. And maybe get the N-scale El Capitan. It's a beautiful set, and it could be a cool payload on a string of flatbeds after the F7s   :D  :D  :D

 

Jens

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I am also modeling ATSF, locos and cars.  When I started, no one made 1:32, so, I made my own molds.  If I were you, I would kitbash the MTH cars, they are a good start, good details and you don't have to make the trucks, just stretch out and change the windows.  The dome care was a little tough to model, but it can be done. Here is what I am working on now, an observation car made for the Texas Special and also used on ATSF.

post-547-0-57559100-1400695317.jpg

post-547-0-53388500-1400695344.jpg

post-547-0-47089600-1400695376.jpg

post-547-0-33637700-1400695408.jpg

post-547-0-46090800-1400695445.jpg

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...  If I were you, I would kitbash the MTH cars, they are a good start, good details and you don't have to make the trucks, just stretch out and change the windows. 

 

Oh man, here I thought I had made my decision.

 

:D

 

Just stretch, huh?

 

I haven't tried stretching a car like that. What would you do? Scrap one and cut it in 2-inch slices to use for the others? There's a lot of 2-inch pieces in one coach.

Or would you mold the extra pieces of the sides using the coaches as the master?

 

Beautiful work, by the way.

 

Jens

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I would, being a guy that makes molds, make the appropriate mold and then make as many pieces that you need for the future cars, that's what I would do.  The MTH cars are beauties,, the only thing that I don't like are the ridges on the roof, not scale like.  I would sand them off every car.  The prototypes were welded and shows just a slight line where the welds are.  Other than rearranging the windows for the different cars, you would have some good looking cars.  Thanks for the compliment.  Robert Brown

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Just once, I'd like to find some 1:32 rolling stock that I didn't immediately feel the need to modify.

You know - so I know what it's like.

 

I suppose that's my way of model railroading  :rolleyes:

 

Guess I need to save pennies for some coaches ...

You can tell I had a hair trigger, there, can't you?

 

:lol:

 

Jens

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Unfortunately, unless you pay big bucks for some finescale cars, 3500 dollars or so, we are stuck with kit bashing or making complete molds.  What I did, was make a master mold without windows, and then take the part and mount it on a Bridgeport mill and then cut the windows to suit for the different cars.  So, that way, you only have one mold for the sides, one for the roof, and one for the ends.  The tedious part is making the trucks.  I still think the best way, not having molds, is to make the section mold and stretch the cars.  Bob.

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FYI in response to the request for photos of the MTH version of the ATSF passenger car, I created a new thread and posted them here:

 

http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/index.php?/topic/287-mth-passenger-car-photos/

 

Rounding this one off:

 

I had my eyes on the coaches on Ray's site, but after seeing them, I have decided that - even though they are indeed great looking - they deviate too much from the prototype. I have too many projects in the pipeline already, so I would not be happy with those coaches, knowing up front that I need to do a lot of work with each one. I'm still over the moon in anticipation of the F7s, though, so maybe some time in the future ...

 

Thanks for the help and replies everyone.

 

Best regards

Jens

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  • 7 months later...

Beautiful job rbrown! This is surely a good way to do it making a generic body mold and milling out the windows to suit whatever configuration you want sleepers, roomettes, diners, coach, baggage,, RPOs, dome cars and lounge cars. Most limiteds had a whole range of cars in their conssists to suit every passengers needs. modeling these can and is quite a long term effort in 1/32 scale. I now own 12 passenger cars in PRR made from authentic diagrams, but I still  can't represent one authentic consist on the east west fleet.  Keep in mind that the Santa Fé cars had fluted roofs which is a different style of roof (because made from a different builder than...) the MTH ones which are right for cars built by ACF or Pullman standard but not by Budd. I have the same problem to produce Senator sets for my East coast corridor traffic. Stretching them will produce scale length ones but still without the correct roof. So it would be better to consider another option. It sure would be nice if someone made some scale length fluted side and roof cars. Perhaps if the smooth side cars being made by Accucraft sell well they may follow up with such an offering. The main difficulty is having the extrusion made; then its no big deal to open out the correct window configuration. Otherwise and in particular for smooth side cars there is the David Leech products which make up very nice scale length cars in aluminum. It seems that he has offered some fluted side versions, but I don't know how he makes these or if they are still being offered. I have Five of his smooth side cars. Check out his site.

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  • 2 months later...

By the way: Smooth side cars is the why I went Pensylvania RR, since also I wanted the MTH GG1. It hauled ribbed cars also for the senator train sets, but I guess that I will have to wait for someone to make the correct ribbed cars. It's such a shame, they exist in 1/29th scale! I even pondered the idea of cutting down some USA PRR cars to 1/ 32 scale but I guess I could never shorten them... I had originally planned to make my own smooth side cars, then I discovered that David Leech was making a whole lot of authentic PRR diagram smooth side cars. That really saved the day, and these cars have stacked up millions of scale miles by now, at home on my line or at shows where I take them to run in public. At Rail expo I ran my K4 about 5 times for over an hour each time with 6 coaches behind. You can check that out on you tube, here is the link to it:           

 

I was running the K4, my D. Leech cars and my scratch built B 60 and D78 dinner (all in aluminum), with my buddy Dennis who was inaugurating his rebuilt Merchants navy with a long train of plastic coaches.The big problem today is E units and ribbed passenger cars with ribbed roofs (MTH ones don't have the ribbed roofs and are too short). I am no Santa Fe expert but I beleive most Santa Fe cars had ribbed roofs.

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Someone mentioned it, yes the fluted roofs are Budd, I don't do Budd, just Pullman Standard and EMD. I am involved with the viaducts right now, but I started a project to stretch the MTH passenger trucks to make them look correct, added about 1/2 inch in length. If I recall, I will have to stretch the MTH passenger cars about 2 inches to make an 85 foot car, or what ever length they are. Even having molds for 85 foot, both corrugated and smooth, the MTH cars would be easier to put together than starting from scratch, and they look good. I have fun no matter which way I make them.

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  • 1 month later...

Jens, have you decided whether or not to stretch the MTH passenger cars now that you see what I am going through? And, I am not done yet, I have to stretch the roof, that's what I will begin today. Bob.

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