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Santa Fe hi-level coaches


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So ... I have this dream that one day I'll have a reasonable 1:32 scale El Capitan consist with hi-levels, RPO, transition dorm and whatnot.

Since there is nothing on the market, I may have to make it myself.

 

What? I did say it's a dream  :D

 

... and since I've been hogging Chucks Milwaukee Road Skytop Lounge thread about it, I figure I better start my own thread.

 

Ahem!

 

First things first, and I've been scanning the web for drawings of the hi-levels. My search brought me past an old thread on trains.com, where in the fourth post from above, good references are given.

I couldn't locate "Ye Book of All Knowledge" by Kogan, Occhiello and McCormick anywhere, but out there on the web I was lucky enough to find and purchase:

 

- Warbonnet Magazine Q3 1999 from the Santa Fe Historical Society.

- The High Iron 1971-1973 by the Santa Fe Modelers Association

- Santa Fe Modeler 1984-1986 by the Santa Fe Modelers Association

 

That is pretty much all the other references in that post, which seems to be fairly authoritative.

Everything is still in the mail, but once it gets here, I'll try to get an idea about how such coaches could be made without having to pawn my house and car.

 

Jens

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Jens, you're not dreaming!!!!  I'd like to be kept up on this subject, so let me give you my 2 cents worth. Put me down for a set of them, but they must be scale, plated, and with the correct trucks. I honestly think you could sell about 20 or more sets of these. This could offset your investment by having everyone serious about this to put down a deposit. Let's see if any other Sante Fe nuts out there are willing to "step up to the plate". 

 

"Not getting any younger"

Larry

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Thanks Larry.

Your enthusiasm is encouraging  ;)

 

Scale - absolutely.

Correct trucks - you bet.

Plated - hmm, don't know yet. Lots of manufacturing methods at our disposal these days including 3D print, laser cutting, water jet, alu extrusion ...

 

I'm leaning towards 3D printing, but relying on that alone will most likely be too expensive for a series run. Molding from a 3D printed master could be one solution. But it's way too early to speculate about that.

I have good contact to some of the local manufacturers here, so eventually I'll talk to them.

 

I'll keep you posted here ... and bounce ideas as they pop into my head.

 

Jens

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  • 4 months later...

In addition to the above mentioned books and magazines I have now located the original Budd drawings of the hi-level coaches (2nd series it seems). So far only drawings of the chair coaches, but I hope and expect that the diners and sky-lounges are also there.

Still, one type is enough to start with, which brings the next question: how to design a 1:32 hi-level coach ?

 

I've been considering some manufacturing methods of the car bodies, and the method of choice will to a large extent be dependent on the volume.

The primary methods I've considered are:

 

1) Molding

2) 3D printing

3) Aluminium extruding

 

Re 1): Molding is expensive, not least because there are 3 basic types of coaches - the chair, diners and sky lounges. You need large volume to justify the cost of the molds.

 

Re 2): 3D printing will probably be prohibitively expensive due to the time consumption of such large models. There is new tech arriving which cuts an 11-hour job down to 6 minutes, but I don't know when that will be commercially available and at what cost.

 

Re 3): Not as far fetched as it sounds. I have a reasonable price indication for the initial cost and I have a work relationship in the business. I need to check. I am very intrigued by this method. The three types of coaches have identical profiles, so an alu extrusion could be used for all types. The windows (and perhaps vent grilles) would be milled out according to type, and various minor parts could be molded or 3D printed. This requires some volume, but not as much as professional moldings.

 

Volume?

Do I make this for myself?

I'm not sure I'd want to be in charge of a production run. I would very much like to design it or be part of a design team.

 

One thing I've thought about is that if such coaches are manufactured in Europe (where I sit), the shipping cost to the US will kill them - and vice versa.

 

  • Crowdsourcing?
  • Joint effort?
  • Across-the-world collaboration?
  • Open source?
  • DIY kit?
  • Complete design offered to established manufacturer?
  • What?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Jens

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The live steam people are always looking for cars, so I'm sure you could sell some. Accucraft is doing that, not sure how many sets they sold.  I'd like the Milwaukee lounge car Chuck was looking at doing, but I would paint it in UP colors to go with my train. I know UP never had one, but it's my train! :rolleyes:

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Jerry, before its death, most all of the Milwaukee Road passenger cars had been painted in U.P. yellow and gray. They remained that way until the end of passenger service on the Milwaukee. The E-9's were also painted in U.P. colors.  If you want to run a U.P. painted Skytop at the end of your train, it would be perfectly prototypical. I've got tons of pictures of them in U.P. colors. If you'd like me to send you some pictures, just let me know. Larry

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Did not know that till you sent me that one pix Larry. Sure, like to see some more. Still wondering how to make that Skytop, be cool to have. Maybe I'll get a UP observation car and see what I can do.

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I was thinking to build it with just square pieces, since the glass is flat and they are just a bunch of angles. Then add the curved parts to the outside as you see in the photos. I posted some on Chuck's article about it.

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  • 3 months later...
 

Lovely  :)

It also appears to be the combined El Cap/Super Chief, in which case I've seen many pictures with 6 units at the front. Mostly ABABBA, but this is cool.

I think they set out from Chicago as ABBA or ABBBA and got helpers in Pueblo or something like that. Before the mountains anyway.

 

My all time favourite is this ABBAABBBA consist at Cajon Pass (Sullivans Curve?), but a consist like that would almost fill a platform track on the club layout  :lol:

 

Jens

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Hey Jens I have some pics of some mth O gauge cars that I picked up on Ebay. Just an idea, but for the design couldn't you use the O gauge for the design of the mold, just change the scale. These cars seem to be very accurate, but I couldn't prove it. They have interiors and everything. Bob.

post-547-0-36920100-1436284678.jpg

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post-547-0-36392200-1436284727.jpg

post-547-0-33825900-1436284756.jpg

post-547-0-73289200-1436285391.jpg

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Thanks Bob. Nice cars.

 

The hi-level in the lower right picture appears way too short, but maybe that's just an optical illusion.

 

Anyway, I do have the original Budd drawings, and they are very good - even for the interior. So far I have only tracked down the drawing for the chair coach, but my source is still looking for the sky lounge and the diner. Succesful or not, that one drawing will keep me busy for quite some time, and I may be able to make a sky lounge by extrapolation. The chair and sky lounge cars had the same trucks.

 

I've been investigating the economics, and while the starting fee for extrusion is reasonable, I can't swing it on the household budget. I need to talk to manufacturers or do something cheap "on the kitchen table". I do have one or two manufacturers in mind, but I'd like to have a design ready before I approach them. I'm not in a rush. It's a long term project and there are others ahead of it in the pipeline.

 

Jens

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MTH O Gauge cars are short as I believe they only measure at 18" in length. Atlas & some brass manufacturers make cars that are 21" in length...and those are in high demand. MTH did make some 21" passenger cars back in the mid-90's but those are super tough to find!

 

My 1:29 scale USA Passenger cars are 34" long over the knuckles so they scale out to 82' long.

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It also appears to be the combined El Cap/Super Chief

 

You sure about that as I count only a few more cars than the normal 12 car consist? Did they ever add more cars during the Holiday season?

 

I'm not well versed in the SF trains but didn't they combine them towards the end of their life and be pulling them with PA, E8 or say GP60M's??  

 

For Santa Fe El Capitan circa 1956 was always run in a very specific order.  That being:

Baggage (storage mail)

Baggage

Baggage-Dormitory (transition car)

Hi-Level 68-Seat Step Down Chair Car (ran backwards)

Hi-Level 72-Seat Chair Car

Hi-Level 72-Seat Chair Car

Hi-Level Diner

Hi-Level Lounge

Hi-Level 72-Seat Chair Car

Hi-Level 72-Seat Chair Car

Hi-Level 72-Seat Chair Car

Hi-Level 68-Seat Step Down Chair Car

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Let's talk Golden Gate (Sunset 3rd Rail), into making some G scale sets! It's $2000 for the O scale sets. I'd rather put the money into G scale. The problem over here is most want larger scales. I'd prefer them in 1/32.

 I'd bet that if you had the right number of orders, the manufacturers would do it. There's a lot of talkers that back out when the money is needed.

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http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=450993&nseq=22

 

You sure about that as I count only a few more cars than the normal 12 car consist? Did they ever add more cars during the Holiday season?

 

...

 

They ran El Capitan and Super Chief together during off-season and as two trains in peak season.

Long train or shorter, always El Cap at the front (at least in all the pics I've seen). I've read somewhere that 18 coaches were the max.

 

You can see the Super Chief dome on the last half of the train in your picture. Compare with this picture where it is more obvious.

 

:)

 

 

Let's talk Golden Gate (Sunset 3rd Rail), into making some G scale sets! It's $2000 for the O scale sets. I'd rather put the money into G scale. The problem over here is most want larger scales. I'd prefer them in 1/32.

 I'd bet that if you had the right number of orders, the manufacturers would do it. There's a lot of talkers that back out when the money is needed.

 

I know some German gauge 1'ers are into US modeling, so with the new batch of F7s coming out there may be some interest. But then it must be absolutely true to 1:32 scale.

And yes, talk is cheap. That's why I'll try to fit together a reasonable project that doesn't require a substantial investment for a limited run.

 

;)

 

Jens

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Let's talk Golden Gate (Sunset 3rd Rail), into making some G scale sets! It's $2000 for the O scale sets. I'd rather put the money into G scale. The problem over here is most want larger scales. I'd prefer them in 1/32.

 I'd bet that if you had the right number of orders, the manufacturers would do it. There's a lot of talkers that back out when the money is needed.

 

Joe, The Accucraft 1:32 scale brass passenger cars at $300.00 each really ain't a bad deal. Competitive with USA extruded aluminum 1:29 scale cars. I had a UP train made up of a USA ABBA PA set pulling 9 cars with all lights, sounds & smoke units on and it drew 20 amps :o   

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Joe, The Accucraft 1:32 scale brass passenger cars at $300.00 each really ain't a bad deal. Competitive with USA extruded aluminum 1:29 scale cars. I had a UP train made up of a USA ABBA PA set pulling 9 cars with all lights, sounds & smoke units on and it drew 20 amps :o   

 Yes, I can imagine they are very good quality. I maybe interested in getting some NYC later on, when they are built. If I miss out, so be it. If they had announced Amtrak and/or superliners, I would have preordered. Something about the double decker cars draw my interest. I really prefer modern stuff. This era is about there for me. I can always add a couple in a train, and pretend they were refurbished. They probably in most cases, were.

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Something about the double decker cars draw my interest. I really prefer modern stuff. This era is about there for me. I can always add a couple in a train, and pretend they were refurbished.

 

Believe me...I do understand!  :)

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Uuh ... duuh ... 20 amps ... Yikes!

What kind of bearings do these cars have? Rollers?

 They use plain old bushings in the sideframes along with carbon brushes rubbing the wheels backside on 2 axles. Each car weighs in at around 9 lbs. As if that ain't enough they use 14 incandescent light bulbs wired in series drawing straight track power. I'll work on changing them all over to bearings in the truck frames, change lights over to Led's, remove power pickup brushes then electrically daisy chain all the cars together and power the lights from a battery in either a express boxcar or baggage car.  

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  • 7 months later...

I use some modified USA Train trucks with the side frames brought closer together with new fabricated stretchers and by returning the axle  ends so the side frames are closer to the wheels, and removed the pick ups.They now run very smoothly. But being 1/29 they look a bit big next to the Accucraft ones of which I have one which is the pullman, as I didn't have a 10-6 pullman. Now, I think that I will try to get the Accucraft trucks for appearance sake but the USA ones modified run extremly well and after hundred hours of use show no sign of wear in the bearings. The Accucraft run on ball races and will coast on the slightest dip in the terminal yard trackage.But at the time it was a good deal to get all metal  sprung trucks for these cars at 25 bucks a piece.

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  • 1 month later...

Picking up this old thread and getting back on topic, I am currently designing a profile for the hi-levels, which is meant to be made in extruded aluminium.

Much work has yet to be done, and this is not the final result, but here's a quick glimpse of what I'm doing.

It's exactly to 1:32 scale and it should be possible to use the profile for all types of chair cars, sky lounge and diner.

 

;)

 

Jens

 

post-559-0-23426800-1459713292.png

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