enginear joe Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I have the last release of a MTH Dash 8 BNSF. http://mthtrains.com/content/70-2072-1 It runs about 30% faster than it should. It runs smoothly just fast? It happened with very low mileage and it's only a few months old. So, I've swapped out tach readers, installed tach tape, soundfiles, installed BCR2, the whole board sets, tach reader wires, and even the trucks. I swapped the trucks first and then totally changed them for ones from a good running engine. Everything ran fast??? So I'm left to believe that the tach reader and the ones I swapped out with, are all messed up? Is there any kind of tech bulletin on this engine? Any other reports of maybe messed up tach readers? The way this happened so suddenly when building a consist , I had blamed DCS version 4.31 It must be something else?? Another engine did the exact same thing. When I replaced the tach reader, the problem went away. I had installed a BCR2, at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I have never seen this on an MTH production engine, ever. I have also never seen where an engine one day just decides to go 30% faster. Explain in detail what you did when you swapped boards. Did you retain the original sound file in the board from the other engine? Did you overwrite it? There is a common denominator that is being overlooked and in all the swapping a mistake is being made in the proper troubleshooting process to eliminate the cause. It's simply impossible to have step by step to have replaced motor blocks and then the board (retaining the original sound file from the original engine you pulled it from) and it still run fast as it was, as you have now effectively made the engine become the other engine you pulled parts off of. I've been through this before in cases with this kind of confusion where things don't make any sense there is always a crucial piece of information that is not being provided that is the key to it all and it's a matter of figuring out what that is. Isolating this should be very straight forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yeap. It sounds wrong. I swapped stuff out one at a time. I kept blaming the programming so when I swapped out boards from another engine, and it still was fast, that proved I was looking in the wrong place. It was further proved when the second engine that same day that had it's speed thrown out also about 30% faster, was fixed with a new tach reader. So it could not be DCS v4.31??? Sometimes when I'm looking at the problem from the wrong direction, it's tougher to figure out. So I swapped boards from an engine and didn't touch the sound file. It still went fast! So that proved that I was wrong, and more importantly, had to look else where for the cause. The only thing left that I can guess at, is the spare tach reader and somehow the one I took from another engine, aren't reading correctly. I pulled the whole wiring harness apart and unplugged anything that wasn't needed to test speed. How all three tach readers didn't work, does not make sense. Something is wrong! I am left stumped. So I ordered new tach readers to see what happens. There's not much left to rule out! Unless I do it all over again, step by step. I'd rather be building stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If you swap the board (don't touch the file) which means you now use the remote entry in the remote for the other engine, replace both motor blocks and the reader, there is nothing else. You have replaced every item that impacts the speed of the engine. There is something missing here that is not being communicated because it is impossible to have replaced all those components and not have it run like the engine you took it from because all you have left on the engine that was giving you issues was the plastic frame. There is something else that you are seeing that is being interpreted as something to do with the engine. Swapping more optical readers is not going to fix the issue. Explain in detail how you are performing the speed matching test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yeah, I thought that would sound wrong. I don't believe it myself. I take a known working engine and pair it up making a quick consist labeled A. I've tried just running one at a speed and matching the other also. This fast engine is out of whack. You can tell by the way it just looks fast. You give it about 10MPH on the remote, and she pulls away from the rest almost twice as fast. I came up with the 30% just as a rough figure. I ran it out back at the end of the season when this happened. I matched another engine to it's speed. Using a calculator, it came up about 30%+. I was so mad after spending about a year searching for this model, to have it then get messed up. The same event, also messed up my custom made SD70ACe. I put both away until recently. I was too upset to fix them. I had tried to contact them because of any warranty (expired?) with no reply? I'm trying to fix them now so I can run them out back this summer with the rest of my fleet. I have almost 80 of the MTH brand engines. I really am a big fan and only post things like this when I feel it's needed. I don't know why this happened and I'm trying my best to solve it. I thought that just maybe MTH had a run of some defective tach readers?? I'm only guessing. I would hate to think that the heat of summer effects them? Maybe I just got a bad pair of them. I also, have never had this happen to any of my other MTH products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 To go back over this again, if you have taken the board, then did the motorblocks from another engine, you don't have the same engine and if you then replaced the optical reader there is definitely nothing left of the original engine that has anything to do with engine speed, you have a plastic shell and frame left. In the final stage of replacing parts you wouldn't even be using the line entry for the original engine in question that was in the remote because you would be communicating with the 'other' engine's board. There is some piece that is missing out of all this. At this point you need to send it to someone to test it. I'd be glad to look at it if you needed. Raymond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Maybe it's the shell as it is the BNSF speed lettering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I first took the truck apart that had the tach. I inspected and cleaned the area inside, but the flywheel looked perfectly clean. I reset the engine with a factory reset. That didn't work (still too fast). I then re-loaded the sound file and that didn't work. So I swapped out the tach with a spare one I had from Chuck with the wires already connected. Didn't fix it. I was surprised because that had fixed the other engine that acted up that day and was running too fast. So I tried borrowing a tach out of another working engine. That didn't fix it?? I tried a tach tape over the top of the paint incase the reader didn't see the painted stripes correctly. That didn't work. I tried playing with the tach spacing to see what was happening. I replaced the original tach and separated all the wiring looking for a possible short. They all look great and no shorting. I then swapped out the whole trucks and that didn't work. I replaced the original trucks and swapped out the boards. EVEN THAT didn't work! I was stumped??? I maybe missing some of the steps I went thru or even the order. I did everything I could think of. It is still faster that it should be. The ACe's speed was fixed with a new tach reader. So I talked with Midge and ordered new readers to try in this Dash 8. I can't think of anything else to do! I've been at this for a long time now. Very frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blid Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Please forgive me for entering a subject where I have no experience what so ever. But, when you wait for spares, would it be possible to try to move the problem to another engine rather than trying to fix this one? Almost the same approach but maybe that would reveal the problem.Bjorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Every component that could have any affect on speed has been replaced, by changing boards you then actually start using (without needing to doing anything else to the remote or anything) the other engine in the remote.(and of course as part of this the remote entires entries should not have been edited, created, deleted in order to follow proper troubleshooting technique.) Optical reader has been replaced 3 times and does not need to be replaced again. Someone else needs to look at the engine and do testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thanks all. I do appreciate any help. Obviously, somehow I missed something or a combination of things. I ordered more tach readers because I couldn't guaranty that the first spare installed was perfect. It looked used. The second one should have resolved any suspicions, but hey, I've been fooled before. One good idea presented now, would be to install the suspect components into a good engine one at a time to identify any bad ones. All I can do is start over. I offered to return the engine to MTH with no response. It then sat here for months. There were two engines that were effected with this speed problem. I was not willing to ship my custom made engine out. As I stated, that one was fixed by swapping out the tach. I'm trying to look at everything objectively, especially since I started off on the wrong track. Typing this stuff out, actually helps even myself, see where my troubleshooting needs fine tuning. I do agree, that a second set of eyes would help find the problem. I'm just about ready to pass it on once I've exhausted ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Well, guess what. My brand new Dash8 w/ ps3 runs about 30% faster than all my other older ones. Looks like they might be using new speed tables? Something's changed. I sent them an email. I believe they've changed something in the files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hmmm. The new Dash 8 CSX runs the exact speeds as the PS2 BNSF above. They work well together. They want to jump off my curves at anything over 33 MPH. It appears they're doing about 60! I had to set the max speed at 30MPH. At thirty five, they are flying. Weird to me that they would be identical. Has anyone else noticed that the newest engines are faster?? Could the speed tables have been messed up? I'm thinking the O gauge boards maybe flashed differently than the G gauge?? (gearing differences?) I used a spare O gauge board in my test above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 This was the key piece of information that was missing from the original discussion. The O gauge boards aren't flashed differently, but somewhere along the way you used/loaded a sound file with the incorrect speed tables for the G scale engine you were running, that's why the engine was running faster than the others so this wasn't a system or board problem. As far as the new PS3 engine, I just tested the PS3 Dash 8 I have here and it runs fine, but for that model you have perhaps they loaded an incorrect speed table for an O gauge engine. If so that would be a first to see a factory engine come with an incorrect load. Sounds like you have contacted MTH so they should get you taken care of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 ...., but somewhere along the way you used/loaded a sound file with the incorrect speed tables for the G scale engine you were running, that's why the engine was running faster than the others so this wasn't a system or board problem. The engine ran too fast as delivered. It was brand new when I got it. I did try to re-load the sound file thinking it may have been corrupted. I have seen that before. It exactly matches the new PS3 engine in speed steps. I wasn't aware that the O gauge boards were different. I noticed that MTH had changed the names on a lot of their sound files to say they work for O/G scale. I must have guessed wrong! Is there some flash code that tells the board of different gearing in the G scale engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 There is no difference between the PS2 O and G boards. The is nothing to flash. It's the sound file that is the issue. The PS3 is a different case and will need to work through MTH because they don't have any of these files available online to correct this. You will not be able to pull what you need from the engine for this for the PS3 engine, need to get a copy of the files to load to reload to the engine to see if it corrects the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Ok, Thank you! It will be interesting to see what MTH says is the problem, if they reply. Funny that I'm 2 for 2 now with this same issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Robinson Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Just a thought. I think an old version of the consumer loader allowed the transfer of a sound file from a loco. Is this still available and, if so, could a sound file from an acceptable loco be transferred to a problem one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 That is a good thought and would work for the PS2, but for the PS3 I don't believe that is going to work. He is going to need to work through MTH because they don't have any of these files available on-line. MTH posts the needed files for each engine on their site but because these are brand new they aren't up yet. Also, because these are the first PS3 Dash-8s, there are no older files to draw from either. Joe needs to work through MTH (since that is where he bought them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAZGRR7315 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 PS2 conversion in a USAT NW-2 (high runtime); sometimes my system will decide to run with limited speed control. Speed setting 1 mph and the unit is moving at just about overspeeding! Then sometimes, all runs as it should. Remote and TIU are in toolbox mounted at RR. Also, Rayman, anything on converting a USAT S4 to DCS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Who did the NW2 conversion? Sent a PM on the S4 conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blid Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I had a similar problem with a MTH H0 PS3+ engine. It was a bad connection to the tacho board. When the tacho board was properly connected, the problem disappeared. I don’t know it rhe OneGauge PS2 have a tacho board, but if so…Bjorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 Thank you for the advice. I actually had changed out the tach reader. The engines behave fairly smoothly. They are doing what they're told to do. Both run perfectly in sync with each other. When the MPH is set to 35, they are moving very fast. However, they run threw their speed range correctly, and respond to MPH changes. They are just too fast. When the tach, tape, or wiring goes bad, usually I see the engine take off at very high speed and not respond unless stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blid Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I was referring to the problem described by grr7315, but I am happy it was of help to you too. Joe: it seems like your taco tape is for smaller wheels. I’m sure others can tell how to change the tape to correspond to you wheels. I don’t have the skills to open the engines, but I think I understand the technology.Bjorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 Ooops! Thanks anyways! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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