enginear joe Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I am not knocking MTH for this. I'm running at about 25 volts to the track. I turned it down after I believe I burned my LGB cars lights. (I know, too late!) I have several MTH passenger cars and almost all of them, I bought used. I was running them last night and could not stand the flashing interior lights. I stopped and cleaned all the wheels. It was much better. It still drove me nuts. I am considering swapping them all out for LEDs. The originals draw too much, run hot at high track voltage, and of course, flash like crazy when they're older. Do I need to add power pickups? Are the carbon brushes alone, enough to do the job? I was thinking of adding wipers so all the wheels pickup power. I figure the lower draw of LEDs combined with some sort of cap, would help the flashing. I can't stand it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Ray has some advice on his web page about them, might look around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Thanks Jerry. I didn't see anything about helping the flashing lights though. Ray's pages are a great help usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Probably the best bet wold be LED's and have a battery pack for them. I guess you can use a capacitor in some way to smooth things out, but that is beyond me. I was having troubles with the observation car, noticed the wheels seemed worn funny. So I swapped in a set from another car that was working fine and the wheels got messed up on it. I don't run at night much, so don't worry about it. Is fun when they all work nice at night and irritates you if they don't. Maybe Ray will weigh in with some advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I've noticed that sometimes have to clean the backside of the wheels where the power pickup brushes rub...use a q-tip & alcohol or lacquer thinner. Also check with continuity meter from each wheel to the brush where the wire plugs in as I've seen bad pickup brushes...if you take them apart it's usually just a bad solder connection. I swapped something like 9 cars over to Led's...but I sold them off years ago. A lot of work but not impossible. These days I'd side with Jerry and Led them with battery power. That way can remove all the drag the wheel brushes make. Daisy chain them electrically then just need one battery...be nice if MTH made a baggage car as that would be the battery place. After that project is done then install ball bearings in all the truck side-frames for the axles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 I cleaned the heck out of the wheels and they did improve dramatically. However, it's like a flashing light show at night. If I rode in cars like that, I would go nuts. I hate the idea of battery overall. Much has improved with lithium's. With all my track made of stainless and my engines using track power, it seems to me counter intuitive to use battery. If I start, I may as well switch to battery overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Oh not really because like you said the passenger cars love power...both in consuming for the lights and the power to move them. Led'ing & battery powering them would cut power usage across the system. To Led each car I installed inductors > small bridge rectifier > buck converter > Led warm glow strips. Buck converter has adjustable voltage output. Strapped across the outputs of the bridge rectifier I used a big ol' 4700uF capacitor to stop the flickering. The bridge & capacitor fit real nice into the water tank under the interior. Buck was hid anywhere it would fit...a lot of times I mounted them to the underside of the roof. All total I think the price for each car was like $5 to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 can you draw up a diagram of that circuit Chuck and a parts list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 I didn't realize how bad these rolled until I tried to pull five of them. First with a single SFe F7 that stalled. Then even the Hudson spun it's wheels. I removed the brand new observation car (end one?) that seemed to be the toughest rolling one. Then at least the train made some loops around. So I have to agree that roller bearings would help some. The stock wheels themselves roll well. As Chuck eluded to, it's the friction of the carbon brushes that seems to make them tough to roll. I may look at providing a different power pickup system to the new LED rig. I'm not that well versed to create the whole board. Some of it seems straight forward like the bridge rect. wiring anyways. The caps always scare me. That seems like a big cap! I will order some and see how I do. Every time I start searching just for the inductors, my head starts spinning from all the choices. I had all the parts bookmarked until my recent computer crash. I have to start all over again. I should have ordered them when I had the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Gary Raymond has some nice ball bearing wheels with electrical pickups. No dragging on them. I have them in my Pioneer Zephyr and my Shark D&H passenger train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I would post a parts list for lighting the cars but it's been years since I ordered anything. When I buy components off of eBay and Amazon I buy in bulk. To research what I have in stock and then link it to current eBay items would take me the better part of a day. Sorry but I'm busy doing other train projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Okay as I've been working on this a bit Inductors...I use 220uH...MTH includes a 22uH in the PS2 steam locomotive upgrade kits mainly to kill any interference that the cv (constant voltage) lighting boards create with regards to the DCS signal. Any cars/ locomotives that use an auxiliary lighting board gets the inductor treatment. Personally I add them onto both + & - power inputs...some folks use them on the + side only...I elect to use them on both as they're cheap enough and while you're in their why not?? But now there's different ratings of inductors...personally I like the small higher amperage iron core style such as these rated at 100ma which is .1 amps...a tenth of an amp. The price is right at $4.25 per 50 delivered is 8.5 cents each or 17 cents per car if you use 2 http://www.ebay.com/itm/50Pcs-220uH-100mA-4x6mm-10-Tolerance-Radial-Lead-Inductor-Black-/231335526773?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35dcac0175 Next is full wave bridge rectifiers...need these to eliminate any ac sine wave that maybe on the track (not all DC power supplies are electrically "clean") and to correct any polarity issues. I use these as again cheap enough at $12.25 per fifty makes them 25 cents each per car http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bridge-Rectifier-Diode-50-X-2W06-2-Amp-600-Volt-Full-Wave-Rectifier-50-pcs-/261943898372?hash=item3cfd12b104 Next will be Buck Converters...These are great as so many uses for them..and cheap enough!! These are stepdown DC regulators that are something like 92% efficient..which translates into no heat generated. These are rated 4V to 35V in and are adjustable on the output side from 1.25V - 30V out. The Led strips I use are setup for 12V in. These things are a bargain at 75 cents each and they have different footprints available...I'll list a few http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM2596-DC-DC-Adjustable-Buck-Converter-Step-Down-Module-Power-Supply-1-23V-30V-/261826975246?hash=item3cf61a960e http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Power-Supply-Buck-Converter-Step-Down-Module-4-75V-24V-to-0-92V-15V-HS-/111711750780?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a028a0a7c For anti-flicker lights I use 4700uF capacitors...big black things that are cheap! I'm sure that there's other capacitors to use but I stumbled across these one day and bought a bunch of them. Depending on the number of Led's you install in each car will directly determine how long the capacitor will stay charged. I was using something like 42 led's per car (they come ready to use in groups of 3 resistored for 12V) and one capacitor would keep the car lit for maybe 10 seconds after it was removed from a powered track...plenty long enough to provide a few seconds of anti-flicker operation rolling down the rails. I never researched using super caps or various other caps as I was staying in budget...read cheap. Okay as I'm capable of powering my layout up to 30 volts so I use 35v caps...24v caps would probably blowup! I wire the cap across the output of the bridge rectifier so a 35V cap will charge to approx. 90% of it's capacity. If you used a 12v cap and wired it to the output of the Buck Converter would it keep the lights lit longer?? I don't know as I never tried it..I only used what components I had on hand at the time...later on I may try different ways. I found quantities of 4700uF caps anywhere from 35 cents for each up to 70 cents each qty. 50 or 100...there's more listed with qty's 1 to 12..however you want to purchase http://www.ebay.com/itm/4700uF-35V-18X30-20-40-105-50-PCS-Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors-/261365091979?hash=item3cda92ce8b http://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-32mm-x-18mm-7mm-Lead-Pitch-Electrolytic-Capacitors-4700uF-35V-/271655660155?hash=item3f3ff06a7b Okay so now we're up to the grand total per car of... - .17 Inductors - .25 Bridge Rectifier - .75 Buck Converter - .35 Capacitor ------------------------------ $1.52 total per car Later I'll list the Led lights that I use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Here's the lights that I bought...if you shop around may find a better deal http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002QQ48TK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00 I ran one thru my checkout and price was $11.77 + $6.77 shipping = $18.54...again when I buy I buy in bulk so I'd get a break on shipping. What's nice about these lights are soft warm glow, grouped in sets of 3 with resistors so they're ready for 12 volts or less...I was using like 10.5 - 11 volts and they're mounted on adhesive. It's just cut where you want, peel the back and stick in place! So 16.4' @ $18.54 is $1.13 per foot. I was using these at whatever fit the car roof but that was way too many Led's..I'd say use no more than maybe 1.5' per car would make one reel of lights do maybe 10 cars which makes it like $1.85 per car. $1.85 + $1.52 for the other components = $3.37 per car...not bad and it's a great rainy day or winter project If you battery power the Led's then I'd just daisy chain all the cars together and have just 1 Buck Converter mounted in say a baggage car with say like a 14V battery...or 18V...10,000 mah should say like keep 10 cars lit for over 10 hours...maybe more as Nick Jr. once told me he hooked a 9 volt battery to a whole reel of these lights and they remained lit for over 24 hours! I don't know as I've never tried...not yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 Wow! What a generous post to make Chuck. Thank you! (are U putting them in for me too??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Sure...for a fee! And while you have every passenger car apart re-working the lights might as well add some people! Whew I forgot to mention a circuit breaker or polyfuse...I use these right at the trucks on Aristo heavyweights...or mount them in the car as all power would go thru them first to protect the whole system..ie; put them on the main power leads before the inductors. http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/rxe-065/resettable-circuit-protector-0.65-1.3-amp/1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Thanks Chuck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 I ordered most of the stuff and it's coming in slowly. They didn't have many of those Buck Converters left to buy. I'll probably need to get some more from elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Seeing as I am electronically deficient, I ordered some ball bearing pickups wheels from Gary Raymond. $16 an axle. I got two for each of my 5 cars. Will see how that works out. I got some of these a few years back for my Zepnyer and D&H passenger trains and they work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 I got all the stuff. Now I have to figure out what to do with it all! Man, these caps are big. I probably need something smaller inside my O scale cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 OK, got a test car going to see how to do it. I turned the heck out of the tiny screw on the buck board until finally the voltage dropped to what I wanted, around 10 volts. I was shooting slightly higher but wanted to be on the safe side. The lights came right on above 9 volts anyways. I was surprised, no shocked, that the board can put out higher volts then is going in. So be careful. It's a nice feature so the lights will be a constant brightness! The giant cap that Chuck posted did fit right into the bottom tank and the leads went right around a post in the middle, and just happen to fit the radial bridge perfectly. So I soldered the + to + and the - to - on them and connected my leads. I would have preferred the buck board to be on the end of the car with the opening doors. I tried to keep as near to stock as possible and the wiring is on the other end of the car! So I put it there and ran all the wires together. You can see the onboard bluish power light in the car's end window. I used the stock light sockets on the top of the car and pushed wire leads from the 12v LED strips into them. In my rush to test, I snapped the car together without mounting the buck board. It's just hanging by it's wires but sitting on it's end. So I'll leave it in there and fix the rest of the cars I do. I have to give a great THANK YOU to Chuck! for all his posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 Ah sugar! I forgot to order some people!! I'll have to find a source. Chuck's posts spoiled me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I got those 1/32 people off ebay. GEt the painted ones, pretty sloppy, but you can't tell inside the car, but knowing you I am sure you will touch them up. I did mine, but seemed to be a wasted effort, unless you have them sitting on a shelf so you can see inside easily. Have to notch their legs some, or cut them to fit, but they do pretty good in the MTH seats. I just use a Dremel drum to grind them to fit. I painted my car interiors, since the UP passenger cars did vary in seat colors. I did not do any printed material though! Outside on the track the figures add some but you are not going to see them well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 yes, Jerry. They do look good to me! I forgot about painting the interiors too! I bet I'll be back inside these soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Sheesh! Painting the interiors was harder than doing the lighting! I'm hoping it will be worth it. I used a light grey as the main color that I saw in an Amtrak photo. Now with the new LED lights, the grey looks white. Jerry, you are lucky that the UP colors are close to what the plastic is already (plus the grey you added). I started out with a bigger plan of having a rug color, metal panel color, seat cushion color, etc. I minimized it just to two now. Still tuff sitting and painting all the seats cushioning blue. Lucky for me, my girl just started helping by taking over the painting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 I couldn't be more pleased with the results! The cars don't flicker at all. The amp draw is now non-existant. The signal strength is very good. 4 cars are done, & running with the engine and the meter shows just over one amp total. I will shoot a video when the sun goes down. Now I have to look at the LGB Amtrak cars, the MTH and other cabooses, and all my O scale! I have much more work to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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