Before you modify anything I'd try the motor first and run loco with boiler off. I tried a 19.7:1 motor in the last K4 PS3 conversion I did last fall and the loco was way too slow. Could only get like 60 mph out of it at 30V on track. I stuck with the stock gearing.
Changing motor gearboxes is a pia as armature shafts are different sizes where the pinion gear presses on.
I've converted 5 of these K4's to PS2 & 3 and only had 1 that ever overheated the motor. What I did was eliminate the weights that are on either side of the motor to allow more air to move around in hopes of keeping motor a bit cooler.
Hope that helps a bit.
Good tips, Chuck, thanks! It's good to hear from someone who's worked on these engines! I did run on DC on my workbench and it does feel really fast. I suppose a quick and dirty DCC install would be easy now that I've opened it up (I don't have a way to run DC on my layout).
I do want a lot of power though. I have a long 2.5% grade, and I like to pull long trains. In fact, I've also ordered some additional lead weights!
Do you know which 19.7:1 motor you used? If it was the GM9413-2 then it has a no-load speed of 142 rpm, compared to the stock GM9234S017 speed of 424 rpm. The GM9236S020 motor I've ordered is rated at 236 rpm, so I'm hoping it's a good compromise. But in any case, I prefer power to speed, and when I'm running multiple trains on one continuous loop the freight and passenger trains need to go the same speed. (I also don't have any PRR passenger cars yet, so for the time being this will have to be in freight service.)
I also thought of one more potential way to fit the bigger motor in there: I'll have to open up the gearbox to verify, but I opened the factory gearbox and there's a lot of extra space! It might be a pain, but I could potentially shorten the gearbox. Machining down the housing would be easy on my lathe, but removing the shafts to shorten them might be tricky.
Two years ago I bought an electric AML K4 Pacific at a swap meet, as an open-box item without factory smoke unit or working lights, knowing also that these locomotives are known for running too fast with a motor than can burn out with too much load.
Now this locomotive is finally on my workbench, and the first thing I want to do is upgrade the motor. Greg Elmassian has a documented some possibilities on his site, as well as providing some tips on disassembly which were very useful, however none of his suggestions seemed perfect.
The stock motor is a Pittman GM9234S017-R1, 24 VDC, 11.5:1 ratio. One suggestion on Greg's page is a GM9413-2, with a 19.7:1 ratio. This sounds perfect and it's the same physical size, but in studying the specs for torque and current it appears to be a less powerful motor than stock. Perhaps the gearboxes would be interchangeable, since it's the same physical size, but that's a big risk considering the cost of motors and the factory motor isn't exactly ideal either.
So after much research, including other brands and sizes, I've decided to try a Pittman GM9236S020. I found it on eBay for only $30 + $7.50 shipping. It appears to be ideal in terms of the specs: 19.7:1 ratio, speed of about half the stock motor, and about 2.5x the torque of the stock motor. The current requirements are a bit high with a stall current of 9.64 amps, but I've got a 10 amp QSI Titan DCC decoder for it, and the continuous current requirements should be much less, with the sweet spot of the speed, current, and torque chart at about 5 amps: https://www.servo2go.com/support/downloads/GM9236S020.pdf
The downside is that this motor is 0.65 inches longer than the stock motor, and I don't think it's going to fit without some additional work. There is a little room between the motor and the backhead (although difficult to measure), but I'm estimating more in the 0.3 to 0.4 inch range. However, I can't see any reason why I can move the motor forward a little. I think I can modify the motor bracket, and cut off a little of the shaft to the axle gearbox which has a universal coupling (and I don't know why, since the motor and axle gearbox are both fixed, unless it was just to made the design of the motor mount easier so it didn't have to align perfectly.)
The new motor will arrive sometime next week, so I will resume work on this then.
Thanks for sharing. It's crazy to think that #1218 was operational so recently, and yet may never run again. But it's a great reminder to take advantage of the opportunities we have now to experience currently operational steam locomotives. I'm considering going to chase UP 844 again when it comes to Boise next month--that's "only" a day's drive for me. Of course I've seen it before, a few times. I really need to go east and see #611!
Haha, yes, I wasn't going to admit that I've been checking that frequently as well. I'm hoping this means everything (2015 and 2017 catalogs) is lined up at the factory for now through summer, and we won't have to wait so long after all! Now let's see if they get the Big Boys out this month as currently scheduled.
Yeah, that's a USA Trains part number and locomotive. Fortunately, the GP9 is still in production and USA Trains / Charles Ro is pretty good about stocking parts. Call them at 781-322-6084 and describe what you need.
I believe I recognize it from the mail-in survey they had back in 2015, also.
So... just for fun, a little bit of speculation. Those of you lucky fellows who've been able to run the USAT Big Boy; do you think an FEF-3 tender, which doesn't seem to be all that different from a 4-8-8-4 tender, will manage a diameter of less than 16 feet? A friend and I are dearly hoping that it will be able to manage 10, but we're not holding our breath. The Hudson can manage 8 foot without trouble, but it's much, MUCH happier on 10 foot, at least in my experience. Thoughts?
Hmm, good question. I can try next time I run my Big Boy... I have a branch loop with 10 foot diameter. The centipede axles have a lot of play, but I would be concerned with the front truck hitting the tender body and pushing it off the track. That's a problem I had early on in a couple places (on 20 ft diameter), until I noticed the tender was leaning forward slightly. Adding a few extra washes between the front truck and tender body fixed the issue.
Awesome to see an ad for the FEF-3! Where did you find this, Ray?
Last summer a USA Trains employee at the NGRC show told me they'd be shipping by this summer. Of course, that's very hard to believe in this hobby. Nevertheless, to me this indicates that they have actually been working on this for awhile. It's not like they are just putting out a flyer for something they may or may not build someday (e.g. Accucraft AML GP60, Dreyfuss Hudson, etc).
Looks great, thanks for sharing this! I have a theory that this is either a new prototype or an old prototype (and not a production copy), because I'm seeing some differences between it and production (based on Ray's photos: http://www.rayman4449.com/MTH_Daylight_GS4.htm).
Some problems I see are that the front number plate is missing, the silver stripes on the pilot are curving up (hope they fix that!), and the train numbers are missing. But on the positive (and subjective) side, it sure looks like the smokebox gray is darker than it used to be (yay!), the stanchions on the side of the smokebox are black instead of gray, and the sides of the front platform are black instead of gray. Of course I'm assuming there was only one original production run. Does anyone know if that's true? If there were multiple runs I can see how there'd be some variation like this. (I know from experience that they are many similar variations between different runs of the USA Trains Big Boy.)
In any case, I'm just anxiously waiting for the new ones to ship, now that I've made a preorder with Ray. It's not like I'll have nothing to do for two years if it takes that long, but I can dream that it's sooner, right? :)
Thanks Ben The engine didn't originally have a speaker, smoke or any lights so I had to make space for the speaker, lights etc. The PS3 won't really be any different than other digital control boards in that if you have spotty power going to it, it's not going to run very well. In my case the engine was running good without power pickup problems but it only has four wheels total picking up power so I can see the engine could be marginal in some cases. On this Thomas I installed incandescent lights and was just a matter of drilling the right size holes for them. Yes the eye mechanics had to be disabled to make room for the smoke unit.
Cool, thanks for the additional details. Regarding spotty power, yeah, with just four wheels picking up power AND a very rigid suspension (or lack thereof) it doesn't have to even be very dirty track, as a slight twist will cause two wheels to lose power. But the biggest problem is that with DCC (at least my decoder/config) is when it regains power it doesn't immediately resume full speed. It has to do the startup (two toots) and then accelerate up to full speed. Is it the same way with PS3? All this said, I was able to add a 4700uF capacitor which made a huge difference. Perhaps I should just add a few more capacitors.
Wow, impressive Ray! I've installed a Titan-U (HO Scale decoder) in my kids' Thomas, with a tiny HO speaker (both in the coal bunker), so I know what it looks like inside. Did you make some modifications to fit something bigger? The smoke is also impressive, but it looks like you took out the moving eyes mechanism to fit that. I'd also be interested in closeups/details of how you did the LEDs (the physical part of modifying the housings).
Also, how is PS3 with dirty track? That's the real problem with our Thomas. All my locomotives run fine on moderately clean stainless steel, but Thomas needs extremely clean track! As it is, my kids run their battery powered locomotives instead, and Thomas almost never runs. I'm planning to switch it to battery too this year.
I believe the reason it takes me so long to produce anything, is due to where my stuff is kept. With my physical condition, I struggle to cut stuff by hand. I have a 10" table saw for cutting larger plastic pieces out back in my shed. It needs custom set up to handle plastic and small pieces. The location alone, slows things in the harsh winters.
I would like to get a small table saw right near my basement work bench. Every time I look at what's out there, I get discouraged. Semi high priced for what they offer. I demand a tilt arbor or table. That alone triples the price.
I'm tempted to build my own mini table saw. I could create a custom top for handling small pieces. Maybe I should just start with a battery circular saw and mount it upside down?
What do you guys use?
I have an older Micromark mini table saw I bought used from a friend for $100. It's great for thin materials, but bogs down with plastic over 1/4". Wood is usually no problem, as long as it fits--1" blade height and a tiny table--but it has stalled as well if I go too fast, and with such a short fence it's hard to get perfectly straight cut. I think the problem is mostly the operator though. The friend I bought it from used it for years to create some of the most incredible wood models I've ever seen. That makes it hard(er) to blame to the tool!
The GS-4 is now posted. All other pricing is the same as in the 2015 catalog.
Awesome! I will bring up the topic with my wife soon (of placing a preorder). But I'm surprised to see the delivery date listed as June 2017! Does this change what you so wisely estimated earlier (given the normal delays in this hobby)? Could MTH be so optimistic as to think they can deliver in five months, but then miss the date by a year or two? (Maybe the answer is yes... I suppose this did happen to me with Accucraft and those passenger cars.)
Well although I am very happy that MTH came out with a new catalogue and did come out with another steam loco; I do wish we could see that small steamer they seemed to talk about a couple of years ago. Also the price increase is mind blowing, this isn't brass or hand made models. One of these days this will kill the hobby, how can a youngster get interested in trains with these kinds of prices for mass produced products?
Yeah, I wish there was something completely new too. These are great re-runs with some new upgrades, but it would be nice to see new models too.
Regarding prices, I wish it wasn't so, but brass prices have gone up a lot more than MTH has. Compared to prices of other plastic models from other manufacturers, the MTH prices seem pretty reasonable, especially if you're running DCS or DCC. I normally have to add more than $200 to the price of any locomotive for a decent sound decoder, plus many hours of effort installing it.
That said, not everyone will be able to buy them. But not everyone can afford HO either, it's a few hundred for a decent steamer these days. I have a theory that most of us pick hobbies that are a stretch for our budgets. There seem to be plenty of people buying boats and luxury cars everyday. Apparently some people even spend thousands of dollars buying a hot tub at the mall. I don't know how how people afford those. But for whatever reason I think there's a perception that model trains are "toys" and shouldn't be so expensive. I know most of my friends would be shocked if they found out how expensive this stuff is, yet no one thinks twice about getting a new iPhone for $750. I think it's more a matter of interest and perception than actual cost.
Of course there are plenty of ways to enjoy G-scale for far less money. My kids each have used locomotives with battery and remote controller--each for under $100. And most of my stuff I got used from swap meets as well.
Speaking of black, the catalog is showing a GS-2 for the black paint schemes, but with a road number of 4449 that would be incorrect. There's also no mention of GS-2, so perhaps the pictures are just mockups based on the original release? My first choice is Daylight colors, but I'm tempted by a black version too. However I'd rather have a true "War baby" w/o skirts, like the original release: http://www.rayman4449.com/MTH_GS2.htm
Wow, that's very exciting! I've been waiting and hoping for MTH to re-release the GS-4 with PS3. I'm been mostly looking (well, saving) for an Accucraft GS-4 to best match my new Accucraft Daylight cars, but for the price, with built-in DCC, I will have to strongly consider MTH! Any guesses as to the timeline? And will pre-orders be required?
What does the circuit board do? If it were me, I'd replace it altogether... maybe just hardwire in a switch for "on", or maybe put in something better.
I recently picked up a USAT Hudson that's old enough to have been made before they all came with sound by default, so it lacks the Phoenix system, but I'm not worried about that at the moment. The locomotive has been someone's display model for years, and in addition to needing additional cleaning, I know for a fact it needs some lubrication beyond the visible moving parts/axles. So, I would greatly appreciate some advice on the following:
1.) Proper lubrication to eliminate squeaking: How do I get access to the motor/gears? I've taken off the bottom cover plate to lubricate the insides of the axles in case there was some additional rub there, but I've only partially cleared up the squeak, and I'd prefer to not rip the bottom of the engine apart without good advice, first. Which lubricant should I use? I have some Labelle medium weight oil that I use on my diesels/rolling stock, but additional recommendations are welcome. Further note: the squeak is both a rhythmic sound when the drivers reach a certain point during forward/rear motion, in addition to a constant sound, which leads me to believe it's a dry gear somewhere nearer the motor than the axles.
2.) Coal load replacement/reloading: there are some chunks missing from the USAT load, and I haven't yet searched extensively to see what options there are. Would anyone have any recommendations on either authentic coal load filler or a really high quality fake substitute?
3.) Front/rear headlight replacement: I really don't like how dim the incandescent bulbs are on the locomotive, and I intend to replace them with warm white 3mm LEDs. Based on previous experience replacing the headlights on an Aristocraft Dash 9, I'm projecting that I'll need 200-330ohm 1/2 watt resistors to achieve desired luminence (as in, not as bright as my Dash 9, but pretty bright). I would appreciate any additional thoughts on this also: for reference, my power supplies are a USA Trains Train Power 10, and a Chicago Model International SuperBlue 165 (the predecessor to the Train Power 10). I haven't decided yet if I'm going to replace the marker lights with LEDs, because I like their present luminence. Additionally, while I know the Dash 9 draws an average of 6 volts without a consist, anyone's voltage numbers with the locomotive under load would likewise be appreciated so I can acquire the appropriate resistors.
Thank you in advance for any tips, tricks, and advice!
Hi Razor,
I don't have a Hudson, but the Big Boy is similar:
1. I just use a lightweight hobby oil on the rods and linkages. When I rebuilt it I also cleaned and greased the gearboxes.
2. Coal: I have almost 1000 lbs at home, to run my small 7-1/2" gauge steamer. I've started sifting it through a 1/2" mesh and I'm collecting the dust and small pieces for use with G-scale. I don't have much sifted yet, but you likely don't need much either... let me know and I'll send you some for the cost of shipping.
3. I usually use between 120 and 200 ohm 1/4 watt resisters (and 1/8 watt should be fine!). Look at your LED specs to be sure, but many are 20ma with about a 3.4v forward voltage. If you have 5 volts constant DC (and if not, maybe add a LM7805 voltage regulator?), then you can pick a resister for the brightness you want. You'd theoretically only need 80 ohms for this situation, but as you say you may not want full brightness.
I know you've probably done this but maybe there is another 2.4 channel that has less use than the others that you can set on your router. I use an app "Wifi Analyzer" to see what channels are being used on what frequencies.
Yes, you're right... I've used numerous WiFi analyzers on multiple devices trying to figure out the situation, but no luck. Something happened around Sept 2014 and all of a sudden all 2.4 GHz stopped working altogether. I've used multiple routers, multiple channels, but nothing works. My WiFi printer rarely works anymore even in the same room as the router. I've had to put up two 5 GHz outdoor access points to reliable run the trains (2.4 GHz has better range--except when it doesn't work at all). Even Bluetooth (2.4 GHz again) doesn't work reliably anymore.
That is exactly what I was using and just ordered two from Amazon as their Black Friday deal is going on $33.33 each shipped. (Think sale runs through Monday or unless they sell out)
Note that to use the Kindle with the DCS app, 4 applications have to be installed manually because it currently needs Google Play Store installed and Kindle has its own store loaded, not Google.(It's needed to confirm the version you purchased.) I can post the procedure once I get these in. Remember that if you buy the Standard or Premium version of the app, it is tied to your account so it is accessible to all your devices free. And now about 30 days away from the Premium version being released.
If a person goes this route, you can purchase a TIU, Kindle and WiFi(WIU) for only a little more than the original TIU and Remote set alone.
Cool! Yeah I had to do the same thing to load JMRI Engine Driver. I noticed that sale and was impressed but skeptical... I think paid over $200 for my Kindle Fire about 1-1/2 years ago! But I got the 64 GB version (it doubles as a movie player for the kids for road trips) and also not every Fire (or tablet) had 5 GHz WiFi which is a must where I live because of so much interference on the 2.4 GHz band. I looked at this sale one and didn't see anything about it in the specs, so I'm not sure if it does or not.
I just had my first opportunity to run the WiFi app on a 7" tablet and to me that is the perfect size for running trains with the app. Phones are a bit small requiring you to be a bit more careful and precise with what you select but the 7 inch tablet provides a good balance between larger size but small enough to handle. I plan to invest in a couple of these here very shortly.
Cool, I haven't used the MTH app, but with JMRI and Engine Driver I've also settled on a 7" tablet (Kindle Fire). There's enough screen real estate to run three trains at once, including the first two rows of function keys, but still small and light enough to be easy to handle.
Exhibited my multi-scale collection of NYC steam at the Will Huffman train expo in Williamsport, PA this past weekend. I have NYC steamers in G, O, ON30, S, OO (American), HO, HON3, TT, N, and Z. While I was there I spent a lot of time talking to a gentleman who has a LOT of G scale track, trains, and accessories. I very much LIKED the L-A-R-G-E-R size of the G scale trains. He indicated the willingness to sell a bit of his stuff to me at "good prices". I am seriously thinking about it. I have about 8 to 10K (new prices) of O gauge track, trains, buildings, autos, and etc., etc. which I would need to sell off to fund the new purchases. Part of me is in love with the idea while the other part realizes that in moves like this you also lose value - but I love those BIGGER trains.
Currently I have a 10'x12' layout, small by O gauge standards and even smaller I am sure, by G. But all I want is two continuous loops with perhaps a siding. Some houses, a road, and a few figures would be nice. I do not foresee any possibility of going outside. For those of you experienced in O and/or G scale what advice would you give me? Is the heart ruling the head too much here?
The layout at the Expo would fit in my space and it would be bigger on trains (pun intended) but much leaner on extras....Any comments are greatly appreciated. THANKS!
I'm going to have to stir up the conversation and recommend otherwise. It depends on what you want, and if bigger is your priority then yeah, by all means. But be sure you know what you're getting into. There is far, far less equipment available in G-scale, and occasionally we hear RUMORS of something entirely new, but it has been years since there has actually been anything entirely new released in 1:29 or 1:32. On the other hand, it seems like O-gauge is doing pretty well. One of my good friends recently sold all his G-scale and switched to O-scale, and when I go to all scale train shows like I did last week, I can understand why! I'm a bit jealous of the wide selection and more reasonable prices (mostly).
If I were starting over, I may have gone with O-scale myself. I'm reluctant to switch at this point since I have a pretty large collection and a big layout outdoors. But when I started collecting G-scale, it was a growing scale (and O-scale was shrinking), and I figured that even though I wanted things that didn't exist in G-scale, they would soon enough. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case.
All that said, I do love the big size of G. I'm writing this from my home office where my USA Trains Big Boy is on display--all 5 feet of it--and outside I've run trains over 80 feet long. It's definitely a fun scale to be involved with! I just want to be brutally honest about the drawbacks too.
I am hearing that USA Trains is going to produce the UP FEF3 (4-8-4).
Wow, that is excellent news! It was my first choice from their survey. Here's hoping they have a sample at the NGRC next month! (I will be there and will take many, many photos if they do.)
This is really great news! I was starting to wonder if they'd ever finish the rebuild. Hopefully they'll take it on a west coast tour again next year. I can't believe it's been almost four years (fall 2012) since it was here. Amazingly, my older son still remembers it when he was just 2-1/2 years old. And my younger son was just born, I think the week it was here in 2012, so it will be a great family trip to go train chasing big steam.
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I'm hoping this means everything (2015 and 2017 catalogs) is lined up at the factory for now through summer, and we won't have to wait so long after all! Now let's see if they get the Big Boys out this month as currently scheduled.
Upgrading an AML K4
in Locomotives
Posted
Good tips, Chuck, thanks! It's good to hear from someone who's worked on these engines! I did run on DC on my workbench and it does feel really fast. I suppose a quick and dirty DCC install would be easy now that I've opened it up (I don't have a way to run DC on my layout).
I do want a lot of power though. I have a long 2.5% grade, and I like to pull long trains. In fact, I've also ordered some additional lead weights!
Do you know which 19.7:1 motor you used? If it was the GM9413-2 then it has a no-load speed of 142 rpm, compared to the stock GM9234S017 speed of 424 rpm. The GM9236S020 motor I've ordered is rated at 236 rpm, so I'm hoping it's a good compromise. But in any case, I prefer power to speed, and when I'm running multiple trains on one continuous loop the freight and passenger trains need to go the same speed. (I also don't have any PRR passenger cars yet, so for the time being this will have to be in freight service.)
I also thought of one more potential way to fit the bigger motor in there: I'll have to open up the gearbox to verify, but I opened the factory gearbox and there's a lot of extra space! It might be a pain, but I could potentially shorten the gearbox. Machining down the housing would be easy on my lathe, but removing the shafts to shorten them might be tricky.