Mylargescale.com sold to VerticalScope & concerns of content ownership

[Rayman4449]

I have seen some interesting discussion about the sale of MLS to another company.   Be aware of some of the concerns raised about VS claiming ownership of all user posted content on their sites.  

 

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/20303/mylargescale-com-sold/view/page/3

 

 

-Raymond

[Kevin Strong]

Here's the response from VS:

 

"You own your content, by posting content on this site you have granted us the right to publish it the content you posted here. Meaning we are allowed to keep it on the site."

 

Later,

 

K

[Rayman4449]

Thanks Kevin. The noted history of lawsuits is what still concerns me and is something folks may still want to keep in mind.

[Kevin Strong]

He confirmed it again after Dave Goodson asked for clarification. "You own your posts."

 

Later,

 

K

[Chuck]

Well then I'd think that VS would change/ re-word the TOS to reflect this?  

[Rayman4449]

Yeah my concern continues to be the history of lawsuits.  Regardless what is said, if the lawsuits are true and as described then it's still an issue.  

[Chuck]

Here's from the MLS terms of service page as of today....

 

 MATERIALS PROVIDED TO myLargescale.com OR POSTED AT ANY myLargescale.com WEB SITE

myLargescale.com does not claim ownership of the materials you provide to myLargescale.com (including feedback and suggestions) or post, upload, input or submit to any myLargescale.com Web Site or its associated services (collectively "Submissions"). However, by posting, uploading, inputting, providing or submitting your Submission you are granting myLargescale.com, its affiliated companies and necessary sublicensees permission to use your Submission in connection with the operation of their Internet businesses including, without limitation, the rights to: copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, translate and reformat your Submission; and to publish your name in connection with your Submission.

 

 

And here's from a Vertical Slopes forum terms of service page...

 

 VerticalScope Inc. ("VerticalScope") either owns the intellectual property rights, including copyright, or has acquired the necessary licenses therein, in and to the information, including, without limitation, all text, HTML code, multimedia clips, images, graphics, icons, Java code, and the selection and arrangement of the contents of the Site (collectively the "Information"). The User is granted a limited, non-exclusive license to display the Information and print short extracts of the Information for the User's own personal use only, provided the Information is not modified, identifies the source, bears VerticalScope's copyright notice as it appears above, and provided further that the User shall be fully responsible for any consequences resulting from such use. Any other use of the Information is strictly prohibited. None of the Information may be otherwise reproduced, republished or re-disseminated, in whole or in part, in any manner or form without the prior written consent of VerticalScope.

 

 

Quite a bit a difference if you ask me as VS states in their first line that they own the intellectual property rights...period.

 

 

 

[Rayman4449]

Because the VS terms and conditions is posted it would trump as it is more expansive and in a lawsuit they would point to that.  Yeah no thanks I certainly would not be posting any of help info on that forum in the future.  The fact that this company VS has taken over which has nothing to do with model trains at all indicates the intent is profit only.

[Screwy Nick]

I have only scanned the site since the owners have been changed.   I have NOT LOGGED ON.    I am very reluctant to being tracked and having my viewing choices and address book subject to advertisiers, or am I just fooling myself by not formally signing in????

    Any advice will be greatly appreciated.       

[Rayman4449]

You know hard to say.  The bottom line with it being sold to a marketing company is it's all about money, they will care even less now about the community but not sure how that will be any different than from what it was before.  The only reason a marketing company would want to take it over is to exploit the traffic and user info for every bit of revenue they can get out of it.  That's why their terms and conditions are worded the way they are.  

[markoles]

Without being nasty about it,  I'm only tangentrally following these developments.  One of the reasons this forum exists is a direct result of the way those other forums are operated.  What is interesting is the 'ownership'.  I had been a gold member of MLS for about 4 years before I allowed that to lapse.  I believe I removed all my photos.  Interesting, when I do a search for my old username and MLS, a lot of the old pics pop up.  Interesting, right?

[Kevin Strong]

Chuck, the key phrase of that particular VS terms of service is "either owns or...has acquired the necessary licenses therein." VS owns the copyright on the material they originate (i.e, the graphic look of the forum, icons, logos, etc.). The rest (posts, photos, etc., sourced from the forum participants) belongs to the original author. VS can use retain and reproduce this information because the TOS states the author grants them non-exclusive license to reproduce the material on the site (and usually for promotional purposes as well.) It's a very broad license to be sure, but it's neither a transfer of ownership nor an exclusive license. The author can publish the material anywhere else he/she chooses. This is in line with what the VS administrator has published on MLS with regard to ownership of posts. The "non-exclusive license" referenced in the TOS you're quoting concerns a reader's rights to reproduce what he/she reads on the forum. In essence, I own the copyright on a build log I post to MLS. I grant VS the right to publish that on their site. I can also publish that material here, or wherever. They grant you the right to copy that thread for future reference, so long as it's for your own personal use. (i.e., you don't re-publish it on your web site.)

 

Note, however, that this license is granted "in perpetuity." So even though you may publish a photo to the web and later delete the photo, you've given them license to use that photo, so if they have a copy elsewhere, they can continue to use it, and you very well may still find it on the web. That's happened to me from time to time, and may explain why Mark has seen his photos show up online after he deleted them from his storage space. (I can see that happening also if a server went down and had to be rebuilt from an archive back-up. If the photo was on the archive when it got restored, it's now back on the web...)

 

Also, the only TOS that applies to MLS is the TOS on MLS. So long as that explicitly states MLS claims no right of ownership, then that's all you need to worry about. Of course, they can change the wording whenever they want, but they cannot claim ownership retroactively. (And since you've long granted them reproduction rights in perpetuity, they don't need to.)

 

I've read in a few posts tales of alleged lawsuits filed by VS on forum posters relative to copyright infringement, but to date have not been able to find any firsthand account or court filing to that end. There have been instances where VS has been sued for its users publishing copyrighted material (newspaper articles, specifically), and since the TOS clearly states publishing of known copyrighted material within the forums is against the rules, I might see where if VS was sued for that, they may go after the member who posted it to recoup the damages incurred. (Their right to do that is covered in the TOS.) Again, having no evidence of these alleged lawsuits beyond the few instances where VS has itself been sued, I can only speculate.

 

Regardless of who owns what, VS isn't in the business of culling information from the forums and repackaging it for sale. That would mean they'd have to have someone on staff who knows something about the subject matter of each of the forums they operate in order to be able to determine what's salable information. (A) They don't--the new administrator for MLS doesn't know a thing about large scale trains, and ( B ) it's an incredibly labor-intensive effort to put information like that together. (Trust me--it took me the better part of a year to put my book together, and all that stuff was already organized!) There's no return on the investment. They make their money off of who reads your post, not the post itself. As long as there are eyeballs looking at the page--and more importantly, clicking on the ads on that page--they're happy. (I work in television--it's a concept with which I am very familiar.)

 

Bottom line, I make my hobby money by writing. I'm very careful about making sure I control ownership of what I write. There's nothing in the TOS on MLS (or the TOS of any VS site I've looked at while researching this) that gives me cause for concern in that respect.

 

Nick, any time you do a web search, Google (or whichever search engine you use) keeps track of what you search for. When you then go to a web site that has "ads by Google," those ads are going to be for items related to the subjects you've previously searched for. So in all practicality, you've already been subjected to the kind of tracking that VS's web site does.

 

Later,

 

K

[Screwy Nick]

Kevin, thankyou for the advice.   I bought a toy on Amazon two years ago for my grandson,  still getting adds for toys.   I researched another item and I get adds for everything related to it.       Must be big money in it, cause the equipment isn't cheap.   

[Rayman4449]

I have only scanned the site since the owners have been changed.   I have NOT LOGGED ON.    I am very reluctant to being tracked and having my viewing choices and address book subject to advertisiers, or am I just fooling myself by not formally signing in????

    Any advice will be greatly appreciated.       

 

Logging in isn't necessarily what's going to get you Nick, the advertisers that appear on the main webpage save cookies to your computer that they use for tracking.  Those cookies are automatically saved to your computer just by visiting the main forum website and does not require you to click on the ad itself.  Each and every advertiser can do that.  The only way to get control of that is to go into your settings in your browser and ask that you be prompted anytime a cookie is requested to be saved to your computer and you can then either accept or deny each one.  Some cookies are needed on some sites for them to function correctly, the rest are for tracking your information.  Now again with the site being sold to a company that has admittedly nothing to do with or inherent interest in our hobby you can expect that any and all methods to enhance their revenue will be their first consideration, not user privacy.  Effects could include who they chose to use for advertising groups/pools etc.  There are certain arenas of websites out there that if you visit you are far more likely to get hit with viruses, trojans etc and that has largely to do with the type of advertisers they have/allow and how they have their website setup to get you to click (likely accidentally) on an ad link that brings you to those ad sites.  Not saying this will be a significant issue with that site now but given that the underlying motive for the website will be profit only, there is more of an inherent risk.  I would expect the website operator to have some concerns about reputation (ie if their users are getting hit with viruses right and left) and thus be compelled to put restrictions on the advertising pools allowed, but who knows.  Will any of this matter to the majority of users at that site?  My guess is probably not.

[Rayman4449]

Without being nasty about it,  I'm only tangentrally following these developments.  One of the reasons this forum exists is a direct result of the way those other forums are operated.  What is interesting is the 'ownership'.  I had been a gold member of MLS for about 4 years before I allowed that to lapse.  I believe I removed all my photos.  Interesting, when I do a search for my old username and MLS, a lot of the old pics pop up.  Interesting, right?

 

Yes and the underlying reason for the other sites to have been the way they were was profit motive for increased traffic for ad revenue.  Nothing drives traffic to a website when you have multiple people going after each other in a forum.  Can also likely be certain that there will be even less motivation for that to change in the future.

 

That I do find interesting on your photos.  Probably a smart move for them to save all your personal photos in another safe location so they can't be deleted then also update all the links to point only to that secure location.  I would have to assume the photos are not just in your cache on your computer so your pics must have been copied.  Remember, 'you own what you post'.  

[Rayman4449]

Kevin, thank you for the thoughtful reply.

[Screwy Nick]

Ray, thank you for the advice, will attempt to do that today.    nick jr