QSI Titan Decoders...Do They Work?

[Chuck]

It's been over a year since QSI introduced the Titan decoders. They were advertised as having the ability to power a smoke unit in a steam engine with in-sync with driver revolution puffing smoke. I've searched You Tube and came up with 1 decent vid, and ironically enough it's a AML K4 but it's tuned to something like 2 chugs per driver revolution whereas it should be a prototypical 4.

 

I've heard reports where the smaller 6 - 12 amp Titan won't drive a MTH smoke unit without overheating after a few minutes. The suggested "fix" was to use the bigger 10 - 20 amp Titan! WOW!! A 20 amp driver circuit to operate a smoke unit?

 

 

[enginear joe]

 Well Chuck, you know a lot more than me about this stuff. I think I read from Stan or George on the OGR that the MTH PS board pulses power to them. I wonder if that Titan's board outputs could be changed to do something like that? Maybe it would draw less then? Of course, I'm just guessing. I would think you could just control the smoke motor with the decoder and use (a relay?) to drive the elements then?

 It would have been great if MTH and QSI stayed together and developed these things further. I like QSI's control of their sound triggers and MTH's board overall. Not knowing more about DCC has driven me to strictly use DCS. I'm very happy overall. Now if I could add the new APP for running the trains from a computer, to help eliminate the remote's shortcomings would be cool.  I hope they will add more controls to this platform allowing us to get closer to DCC without the hastles or drawbacks.

 Anyways, maybe that Stan could be a good source for the Titan's uses and configurations. At one time they had advertised, that the new Titan would work with all major systems if I remember right?

[benshell]

Chuck,

 

I have a fair amount of experience with QSI Titans, having installed several; two with smoke. I really like QSI decoders. They sounds great and have a lot of features. Yes you can set the number of chuffs per driver revolution. I've pulsed USA Trains smoke units with no problem with a 6 amp decoder. However, I haven't had good luck with an MTH smoke unit... they seem to take a ridiculous amount of power. I did upgrade to a 10 amp decoder in my Aristo-Craft to power a MTH smoke unit (from a Hudson), and I'm still having trouble with resetting, but it might be that my DCC circuit breaker is set to 9 amps. It was working great on my workbench, but when I took it out and tried to pull a train it reset immediately. It's all a matter of the voltage you give it though. You can adjust the voltage of the QSI down as low as you want, and then the QSI won't reset but of course you get less smoke at a lower voltage.

 

I'll have to adjust my circuit breaker to a full 10 amps, and adjust the QSI voltage down a little, and try again.

[Chuck]

benshell,

 

That's good to hear that they will power a smoke unit! What's odd is after a year or so of all the hoopla announcing the pulsed smoke there really isn't much to show them in action on You Tube or anywhere online come to think about it.

 

enginear joe,

 

At one time QSI announced on their website that the Quantum Magnums (and maybe Titans?) would be able to work on DC power, DCC, DCS & TMCC...Guess that didn't happen! 

[enginear joe]

 Is there a minimum Ohms that the QSI board will handle for a smoke unit? I would have guessed that the MTH draws less than others on the market. Maybe it's shorting the board somehow?? Each resistor is 16ohms on the MTH I think (2 16ohms in parallel = 8 ohms). Maybe just try wiring to one of them and not both in parallel to raise the impedance? You guys would know more than I.

[Chuck]

I was kinda thinking the same thing, or maybe change them to USA Trains type or Lionel perhaps?

[benshell]

If an MTH smoke unit should be about 8 ohms then there's something wrong with mine... the resistance seems to vary a lot depending on how much smoke fluid is in it and how hot the unit is, but I've made readings anywhere from 1-something ohms to 5 ohms! Maybe I should see if it's shorting; that's a great idea. The only variable I can control from the QSI is how much voltage to supply, and I've found that more than around 5 volts is unreliable and will likely cause the unit to draw over 6 amps! The smoke unit still puts out good smoke at 5 volts though, and next time I run I'll take a video (after buying more smoke fluid...!)

[Chuck]

The G Gauge smokers are around 4 ohm...maybe 4.6 max. I'll bet that it's too much of a load for the QSI electronics which means they're not as efficient as the MTH PS2 boards are. 6 amps draw for smoke...WOW!!

[benshell]

I'm not sure how it makes any difference what board (QSI or MTH) you're driving an MTH smoke unit from. The problem appears to be that my MTH smoke unit has a problem, like a short, that's causing it to require much more power than it should need.

[Chuck]

Not really as the lower the resistance the greater the load. See with only a 4 ohm load the QSI board must be sensing it as a short. If I remember correctly USA smoke unit heaters are in the 16 ohm range and that would be less of a load on the circuit that's driving it. QSI documentation is bad..real bad as they should state what the heater driving circuit will handle in ohms.  

[frank redner]

Actually the load a decoder will handle is normally expressed in amps, because if you chose ohms, the amount of current will vary according to the supply voltage.

 

For example, a USAT smoker actually runs at about 5 volts, and so does an Aristo. The transistors in decoders are really rated in amps.

 

In the QSI, it gives you a PWM output for the heater and it's good for at least one amp, but if you don't set the unit up, it will provide full track voltage, not the approximately 5 volts that will give you the right current.

 

Many people just don't know that you cannot simply hook up the heater element without making some settings. All the DCC decoders made have this same situation. People may also be used to buying a smoke unit that already has a voltage regulator built in, like a stock aristo, or the USAT with the regulator board, or a Massoth, or a TSA.

 

No doubt that MTH units smoke like crazy, and that's mostly due to running at a higher wattage than others (and having all metal construction to withstand the heat)

 

By the way, there is no difference in the smoke output capability between the 2 different QSI models, the only difference is in the sustained motor current they can handle.

 

FR

[Rayman4449]

Ben, I would have to bet you don't have anything wrong with the smoke unit.  In all the installs I have done and all the smoke units I've bought I've never seen an MTH smoke unit with shorts in it.  (Either caused by elements or something else.)  If you're really concerned and want peace of mind I can provide you replacement heating elements.  The only real way you would have something wrong is to have something wrong with heating elements.  I mean it's not impossible that you would have an issue but would say it is very unlikely.  With the way the elements are made you either have current passing or none if the element wire breaks and that won't cause a short it will result in that element not passing power and thus no heat or energy is being passed through it.

 

Maybe you can take a look inside the unit and make sure the elements are properly centered but you would have to work at it to offset the elements to cause them to short.

 

So when you say that providing 5v would result in a draw of 6amps, are you seeing this level of amp draw on your power supply's amp-meter?  If so what is the input voltage you are providing to the board when you are doing your testing?  

 

I just did a test direct connected to a power supply and at 5v the meter was showing only ~1amp of draw. (this exactly mirrors the draw when a DCS Protosound board is driving one)  If your power supply is showing 6amps of draw when trying to drive that unit with the QSI and you dont have some sort of short issue going on (which Im pretty sure you don't) then you have got something pretty crazy going on with how that board is driving that unit.  

 

But let's start first with a test with the unit direct connected to the power supply and watch the amperage draw and lets go from there.  That would be the way to confirm if you have any problems with the smoke unit itself.  If you confirm that driving the smoke unit with a power supply is ok and not resulting in excessive voltages then you know it's something with the QSI board.

 

In the end it doesn't matter if you provide full track voltage through to the elements or not, that will not result in the unit drawing 6 amps of power.  It still won't draw more than 1amp of power.  

[Rayman4449]

In reading more on what you said Ben it sounds like that you have tried turning down the voltage to the elements and that you noticed lower levels of smoke.  If you somehow had the QSI board setup incorrectly and it was (still) pumping track power or something similar to the heating elements, you would know it.  I say this because if you turned down the voltage via the QSI board and it wasn't impacting the actual voltage sent to the elements you wouldn't be actually noticing a reduction in the smoke output. (or and this is the most key point, making a note that you were unhappy with the smoke output.)  Also you would have likely already burned out the elements in the unit.  (aside from blowing flames out the stack)

 

Yeah sorry after reading this more it sounds to me like the QSI board can't drive that much wattage which is surprising as these units don't draw THAT much power.  If you like you are welcome to send me the unit and let me look at it and do some bench testing for you.  I'll be glad to do what I can from my end to help you get this going.  (I'm just having a hard time believing it can't drive this unit)

[benshell]

Hi everyone,

 

I finally got around to opening my Mallet back up to take another look at the mysterious MTH smoke unit unit. Ray, you are correct, there wasn't a short. However I felt a lump of something around one of the elements. I removed the wicking material and it was a little charred around one of the elements. I found that was mostly the element itself that was charred though. After rubbing most of the charcoal-like stuff off with my finger, you can still see in the picture below how the element is charred. I unsoldered one end of it so I could test and it is 1.8 ohms by itself. The remaining two in parallel are 7.5 ohms. This is why the total resistant with all three was about 1.45 ohms. V=IR, so at 5 volts the smoke unit is going to be pulling 3.45 amps! The other two good elements would have to be about 7.5 ohms each.

 

I'm guessing this element could have been damaged when I first tested this smoke unit, by not putting enough smoke fluid in. At the time I had no idea how much smoke fluid they needed! But the confusing part is that Ray has said that if an element burned out the overall resistance would be higher, whereas mine is the opposite. Any other ideas? I did buy this smoke unit used from eBay so I don't really know anything about its original condition.

 

I'm tempted to try and replace the wicking (I've heard tiki torch material works well) and just run with two elements, at least as a test. But Ray, if you do have replacement elements I'd be more than happy to buy one (or more!) from you. Or I could just send you the smoke unit, but I like learning how to fix things if it's not too hard to do.

 

[Chuck]

Actually the load a decoder will handle is normally expressed in amps, because if you chose ohms, the amount of current will vary according to the supply voltage.

 

For example, a USAT smoker actually runs at about 5 volts, and so does an Aristo. The transistors in decoders are really rated in amps.

 

In the QSI, it gives you a PWM output for the heater and it's good for at least one amp, but if you don't set the unit up, it will provide full track voltage, not the approximately 5 volts that will give you the right current.

 

Many people just don't know that you cannot simply hook up the heater element without making some settings. All the DCC decoders made have this same situation. People may also be used to buying a smoke unit that already has a voltage regulator built in, like a stock aristo, or the USAT with the regulator board, or a Massoth, or a TSA.

 

No doubt that MTH units smoke like crazy, and that's mostly due to running at a higher wattage than others (and having all metal construction to withstand the heat)

 

By the way, there is no difference in the smoke output capability between the 2 different QSI models, the only difference is in the sustained motor current they can handle.

 

FR

 

Just more techno babble from a jerk who doesn't know his ass from his elbow. 

 

Anybody else notice that he doesn't provide any info?? He explains in theory how it SHOULD work with his limited sized pea brain...he apparently can't prove it works otherwise he would have posted how to do it here.

 

MTH has been and always shall be the king of smoke..The way it is after all they patented the microprocessor controlled in-sync with driver revolution toy train smoke unit.  

 

QSI can't do it..that's one reason why MTH booted them and their inferior design out in 2000. 

[Chuck]

WOW!! I found one You Tube video highlighting the "QSI Titan" decoder in a Big Boy operating a smoke unit...Very Very impressive!!

 

 Just look at those billowing clouds of in-sync with the chugs smoke!!    

 

 

[Rayman4449]

Sorry I didnt reply back on this, I do have the elements on hand if you want one or more just let me know.  Yes that one element has too low a resistance , I've never seen that before(whether due to buildup or otherwise).  If an element burns out it essentially causes the heater wire to sever resulting in no power passing through it at all.  So what could be going on with this I'm not sure, my first thought is it has to be something to do with something in the smoke fluid the original owner was using?  It sounds like it may somehow be conductive but not sure how that really could be.  With the way the heating elements are made, it should either be right or not work at all.  1.8 is really low.  I suppose it could be a faulty element.  At any rate, hopefully you have found the issue!  

 

Email me on the elements and we can go from there and can work to get you fixed up!  

 

Hi everyone,

 

I finally got around to opening my Mallet back up to take another look at the mysterious MTH smoke unit unit. Ray, you are correct, there wasn't a short. However I felt a lump of something around one of the elements. I removed the wicking material and it was a little charred around one of the elements. I found that was mostly the element itself that was charred though. After rubbing most of the charcoal-like stuff off with my finger, you can still see in the picture below how the element is charred. I unsoldered one end of it so I could test and it is 1.8 ohms by itself. The remaining two in parallel are 7.5 ohms. This is why the total resistant with all three was about 1.45 ohms. V=IR, so at 5 volts the smoke unit is going to be pulling 3.45 amps! The other two good elements would have to be about 7.5 ohms each.

 

I'm guessing this element could have been damaged when I first tested this smoke unit, by not putting enough smoke fluid in. At the time I had no idea how much smoke fluid they needed! But the confusing part is that Ray has said that if an element burned out the overall resistance would be higher, whereas mine is the opposite. Any other ideas? I did buy this smoke unit used from eBay so I don't really know anything about its original condition.

 

I'm tempted to try and replace the wicking (I've heard tiki torch material works well) and just run with two elements, at least as a test. But Ray, if you do have replacement elements I'd be more than happy to buy one (or more!) from you. Or I could just send you the smoke unit, but I like learning how to fix things if it's not too hard to do.