MassiveMotivePower Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I am new to this forum but not to G scale. I apologize in advance for any violations of social protocol but this looked like a knowledgable forum to ask the following questions. As a back story I lost interest in G scale many years ago frustrated by the quality and variety of the offerings in American Steam. At that point only LGB (may it rest in peace) offerings were of excellent engineering and production quality but only had a few narrow gauge versions of American Steam. I tried to love the German models which I do like but wanted main line American Steam so I stored everything away and forgot about it. I retired early and have been working my way into the hobby again. I am delighted at all of the new offerings. To the point I am very interested in purchasing one of the USA trains 4014 Big Boys. But from what I read in this forum is that this model has a design/manufacturing flaw that causes it to short out. Although there are extensive details on how to modify the design I really for $3800 expect the thing to actually run without it destroying itself or buying myself hours of repair work on a brand new unit. I am wondering if USA has done anything to correct this design problem? I also would like to know how long this model has been available? Has the shorting problem been there since the beginning and is this an indication of the quality and support of USA Trains as a company? It does not seem the manufacturer stands behind their product if the buyer must fix the design problems. The other concern is that the only place I can see to purchase the 4014 is from Charles Ro. Also per the forum there were some significant customer service issues from this company to points as fundamental as purchasing sufficient shipping insurance and sticking the customer with the loss. USA Trains does not seem to offer this road number anymore directly so I assume it is sold out from the manufacturer. Are there any other dealers to purchase this model and number from or are the above issues not really indicative of Charles Ro? Any advice or information would be appreciated. This would represent a significant purchase and I would like the resources to go toward enjoyment and not hassles and headaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Hi and welcome. This is one where Chuck will be good to weigh in on here but here are my thoughts... From what I've seen of the wheel power pickup potential short issue (which is where the brushes are out of alignment and able to make contact with both the driver and the metal tire - and with the electrical insulation/isolation between the driver and tire, this opens the door to potential shorts in the future as the brush wears)... If I was someone that didn't want to try and remove the existing brushes and use aftermarket as Chuck did, I would run the engine as is and keep an eye on the brush wear. If you do run the engine that heavily where the brush wears where it does start to make contact, I would use a pair of pliers and rotate the bush 180 degrees in its holder so that the long part of the brush was made to make contact with the tire instead of driver. You could keep doing that as needed but I think the reality of the situation is the brushes will wear slowly so you may never have an issue or have to even consider messing with them. You could as a backup just keep an eye on your power supply's ammeter to watch for spikes in current draw that might be signs it's starting to make intermittent short contact. I personally would not let the issue hold you back from buying the engine. I would get one and run as is and just keep an eye on it. For reference, here is the issue being referred to: http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/index.php?/topic/187-usa-trains-129-big-boy-manufacturing-problem/ The USA Big Boy has been available since June 2007, which is when mine arrived: http://www.rayman4449.com/USA_Trains_Big_Boy.htm My original USA Big Boy came with paint damage from the Styrofoam packing making contact with the paint, with the forward and reverse lights wired backwards and with some issue that caused it to have a direct internal short where it started smoking the second time around the track. I have to think these were anomalies/teething issues with the very first engines and not that widespread. In my case USA quickly exchanged the engine with a new one without any fuss so they took good care of me which left me as a happy customer. As noted before, my replacement engine stays on display and isn't run so I cant say if there are any issues with it but it ran good in the test run and I'm not worried about it. I know Chuck put a good amount of run time on his engine without incident. Regarding fixing the design issues, it would be something they would have to ordered corrected in the future production runs and would need to call them to see if new runs have been done or are planned in the near future and if it is going to be addressed. I don't know if any of the 4014 are available elsewhere. I will say that given the Union Pacific's planned restoration of the 4014 I fully expect USA to rerun that engine number in the future (I also expect MTH will rerun their Big Boy with a 4014 number but I don't know that for certain). In the end, knowing everything I do about the engine, etc I would still get one and if a problem did arise then deal with it at that time but I have to think any really bad or nightmare scenarios are not the norm. This is based on my experience of USA's taking good care of me and the issues I had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Hi, My post http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/index.php?/topic/188-the-saga-of-my-usa-trains-big-boy/is probably one that you've read here. My situation is unique in that I bought the Big Boy "in person" (through a friend) from Charles Ro, and mailed it to myself. So it was up to me, not Charles Ro, to deal with shipping damage and the UPS claim. And my Big Boy came without electronics, so I'm not familiar with the original electronics. However it did come with the original power pickups. I have no yet needed to replace them, but I did have a problem with the tender shorting out. It turned out to be a real mystery, where the problem was hard to find with an ohmmeter and the tender upside down. I did bend some brake shoes to ensure they don't contact the wheels (and I broke one--this pot metal snaps easily so be careful!) and then I didn't have a problem again. I also ended up rewiring it with a different kind of connector between the engine and tender because it was always falling out. However later I realized the tender was leaning forward and derailing where the frame was making contact with the front truck and derailing the tender. I'd forgotten a washer when putting the tender truck back on, but that wasn't enough to balance it properly. Two more washers has helped a lot. Now in retrospect I wonder if this might have been the real reason for the shorts. I use DCC circuit breakers, and fortunately my QSI Titan decoders seem to be pretty resilient to track shorts as well. Apparently that isn't the case with the factory electronics. In any case, I'd still buy one again because it's a beautiful engine that's impressive both running and on display! It's not perfect, but it seems most G-scale engines could use improvements. As for Charles Ro... well, I've had a bit of a falling out with them. In the future I will probably buy USA Trains products only from dealers. And for a die-cast locomotive I will probably pay a premium to buy from my local hoppy shop after carefully inspecting the locomotive. However with a new locomotive purchased directly from them just threaten to call your credit card company if they give you any problems. I doubt it'll be an issue though. My problems, and those of others I've heard about, have been with dealing with parts and service. However is it impressive that they do sell just about every part you can imagine! As for Charles Ro fixing known issues in future releases, my perspective is that they are a company that makes very high quality products. However, they are also a company that seems to deny any problems do exist. It all comes down to the bottom line. If the issue isn't costing them money I wouldn't expect a fix. As for #4014, I'm less confident than Ray about a 3rd re-run, but it's definitely possible, and if UP pulls off their restoration then USA Trains would be crazy not to have their model available for sale. You might have to wait a few years though, as things seem to move very slowly in this hobby. At the very least, I'm sure USA Trains will want to sell out of all existing road numbers first. Hopefully this information helps with your decision, and doesn't discourage you from buying one. It's an incredible locomotive that's bigger than anything else you can buy in large scale, and probably more detailed and more powerful too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I agree by the way I don't think we will see a rerun of any of the numbers until they are sold out across the board. I just don't think they are going to stop producing the model and especially with 4014 being restored have to believe it will for sure be in any future reruns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Be a long time before 4014 is restored anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveMotivePower Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 Thank you Ray for your time and thoughts. I read Chuck's post again and this does look to be a very serious design flaw. Given that the model was introduced in 2007 and Chuck's post is Feb 2014 I'm surprised that this has not been reported more frequently as a systemic reliability issue. Was Chuck just the "lucky" one where all of the tolerances stacked up the wrong way? Looking at the photos in the post the part precision and assembly tolerances are very sloppy and the brushes can be "angled" several thousandths in the wrong direction allowing it to short sooner rather than later. Given there are 16 wheels there are a lot of chances to make this thing wrong. Your suggestion on turning the brushes once they short is a good work around but for such money one would hope the product would be good by design and manufacturing process rather than a customer's skill at making something work inspire of how it was designed and assembled. However I am properly calibrated now and will go into this with my eyes open. Ben, thank you for the clarification on the issues with Charles Ro. Especially on the UPS shipping issue. I understand that the unit you are working on was "Traumatized" and you were purchasing at a salvage price. I am still concerned here as I do believe that a company should stand behind offers made and accepted even if only verbally. If an honest mistake is made both parties can be reasonable about the situation. My expectation is that a purchase made at 100% asking price would provide for a delivery in 100% perfect condition and that would not be too much of an expectation. I have not been able to locate a 4014 elsewhere and because of the restoration I would like to have this number. I realize I am late to this party since the release was 7 years ago. I saw that MTH had released a Big Boy prior but they must have sold out quickly and don't come up for sale much. The only one I've seen is currently on auction at eBay and is up to $1825. This is a lot of money for a plastic model and a lot more than what it retailed for. Don't take that wrong as I have picked up a new MTH Challenger and Triplex while I was "killing time" to see if a Big Boy would show. I do like MTH products but from what I've read here I don't think I will regret buying the larger metal model from USA trains. Since the MTH auction price is already about halfway there I'm willing to make the jump. Honestly I have been waiting about 20 years to get a Big Boy in G scale. In another 20 I may not even be around to enjoy it so I'll take the recommendation and go for this. Thanks to all who have replied to my posting. This was very helpful. Respectfully, Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi Chris, Sure thing. You do make a good point about the varying angles the brushes seem to be positioned, that could negate benefits from trying to alter the brush rotational position on those brushes. Was chatting with Chuck offline on this one and he mentioned that the brush holder holds the brush so it may not be able to be (or at least easily) rotated. Again I'll let him weigh in more here but the only other idea I can see to work around this without doing a complete disassembly and pulling of the stock brushes would be to somehow use a dremel and grind away the side/area of the brush that would be making contact with the driver so that only the part of the brush that is touching the tire would be left. Wouldn't necessarily have to grind it all away all the way back to the holder perhaps just 1/4 of the way back. Just trying to throw what ideas I have to maybe help simply getting yours running if you get one and want to minimize the hassle. $1800 is a lot for sure and is the most I've seen the MTH version go for. For reference, the MTH Big Boy was announced in 2004, arrived in July 2006 and was in stock at least a year as it was in their 2007 catalog. With the 4014 restoration I have to think MTH is going to do another run at some point in the near future, it was their best selling One Gauge engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi all and sorry that I'm late Curtis, That whole power pickup design is a real mess...to say the least! Like Raymond stated the brushes won't rotate as the pigtail on the backside is captured by the "springs" that are supposed to force the brushes out against the drivers. I did think about removing the brushes (which in itself is a project) and grind one side away but I decided to go for a bullet proof fix. Mine is the first production run. They had second run a year or so ago so maybe they fixed that problem..I don't know as I've never heard of anybody working on one and never asked USA Trains about it because they probably wouldn't give a straight answer. I wouldn't be scared at all to buy another one!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveMotivePower Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Chuck and Ray, thanks for letting me know that the brush has a non-rotating construction. That does mean trimming the contact area will work as you have pointed out but it means deconstructing the engine. Another "patch" might be to paint on some liquid tape to the inner tire but I"m not sure how well that would take the brush wear. Chuck has the right approach to fix it by design which for the price it seems like this is what USA Trains should be selling to start with. The fact that that problem made it all the way through prototype and production makes me think they didn't do any run-in testing on their design. It also makes me wonder what else they missed but then you guys probably would have seen it by now. I know this is a small data sample but there really isn't much info out there. This group is clearly an expert user group so I really appreciate your time, experience and opinions. I'll do some calling around tomorrow when everyone is back open for business to see if USA Trains has anything to say about this but I doubt they will admit to the problem or they will be asking for warranty claims. Out of curiosity does anyone know the number of unit USA Trains and MTH have made and what the size of a production run is? Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I have enough trouble getting my MTH BB out to the track. Did make a carrier for just the engine. USA Big Boy's weigh a lot and are a little larger. That is okay, if you can keep the engine on a storage track inside and just run it out to the track and don't have to lift it. Something to consider. Many have converted their USA BB to battery power, so could think on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveMotivePower Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Jerry, thanks for the caution. Okay, just how much does the USA Trains Big Boy weigh? This is my first G scale non-plastic model so I'm getting into a new level here. Also, before I get my foot firmly planted between my teeth can someone clarify the relationship between USA Trains and Charles Ro company. It looks like USA trains is the subsidiary and the manufacturer but Charles Ro is the parent company and both are owned by Charles Ro and son. What it really seems like from the posts is that Charles Ro is the actual manufacturer and USA Trains is a marketing name. In either case I'm dealing with the same owners. Do I have this right? Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The engine without tender weighs 45lbs. What can make it tricky is normally when you lift 45lbs you aren't having to worry about how you grab a hold of it where as with this engine you will be mindful where you are lifting it. Putting in on my staging track is a strain because I have to lift it up at chest level and then extend the reach to the track. It is one reason why I like my MTH's because at 18lbs (engine without tender) they are more manageable to handle. The USA version is built like a tank! And yes, Charles Ro is the person that owns both the store Charles Ro and USA Trains. The Charles Ro store is his one and only store that he operates so by buying USA Trains products from Charles Ro you are buying direct from the factory. On the actual production numbers I'm not sure for either model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveMotivePower Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thanks for the info Ray. My re-endoctrination to the hobby is well underway. 45 pounds is massive and I can see that trying to handle this without snapping some detail or breaking the pot metal could be tricky. The biggest I have handled up to now are the MTH plastic models. I will have to rethink this some but for the immediate future I will simply display it. I have some excellent news, the area's G scale hobby shop Tammie's was able to order the 4014 road number. I always like to support our local businesses so this worked out all the way around. The new toy is on order! FYI: that MTH Big Boy on eBay closed at a whopping $2300 plus $49 for shipping. Looks like you can about double your money if you so choose. I'm a bit surprised as I thought G scale was such a small segment of the market I didn't think demand would be this great for the Big Boy. Given this I don't feel bad at all for making the jump to the USA Trains metal version. It feels like it is a much better value. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MTH-4-8-8-4-Big-Boy-Steam-Engine-with-Proto-Sound-2-0-Tender-MINT-Condition-/111560927088?ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1653 Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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