Inside The USA Trains FEF-3

[Chuck]

Here I'm checking out the new and improved electrical power pickup system on the USAT FEF-3. 

 

This all started because my FEF was flooded with smoke fluid when I received it. Infact so much fluid floating around in it that it soaked the speaker and the cone and surround started shriveling up and sounded terrible but that's another story and I'm going around with USAT Customer Service about it. I replaced it with another.

 

Here's the original speaker.

 

 

The USA Big Boy is a friggin' nightmare "downstairs" in the power pickup wiring spring loaded brushes rubbing against drivers die-cast metal brake shoes and rigging rubbing wheels and shorting out department.

 

They did learn from that fiasco as the new FEF-3 is virtually bullet proof "downstairs"!!

 

This shows that the FEF uses a split driver axle design that is joined together with a black plastic insulator.

Bearing housings are plastic.

Power is picked from drivers at the bearings hopefully from the inner bearing races. I didn't tear it down any further to investigate.

Also the crankpin screw inserts are insulated from the drivers so valve gear isn't "hot".

Also all brake shoes and brake rigging on trucks are made out of plastic.

Virtually "bullet proof" in this department with excellent fit and finish!

 

Here's another pic showing typical USAT design bronze drive gear.

Not really any "grease" on it...more like gear oil. I coated it with Hobby Lube Molybdenum grease before buttoning up.

 

 

When rolling this whole beast back upright I noticed that the chassis is loose on the boiler sub-frame?? 

WTF? No wonder why it seemed to be a bit wobbly on the rails.

 

So roll upright and start checking for the screws that hold all this together.

 

Here's the front 2 located under the smoke unit. Easiest is to remove the front boiler support tower 2 screws, then speaker 2 screws them smoke unit 3 screws.

Here's with the 2 screws removed as threads are stripped out.  Holes are the upper right and lower left.

 

Here's the screws. The ones the manufacturer used measure M3 x 6mm long. Why they used such short screws as die-cast metal is thick? I'll replace them with M3 x 10mm long along with a lockwasher as the longer length bottoms out before it tightens but I can work around that. Ideal length would be say like 9mm but good luck finding those.

 

The rear single screw was just loose but it's buried under electrics.

First remove the 2 switch board screws and the rear boiler mount 2 screws and kinda fold over out of the way.

 

Next is some power boards. Again remove the 2 mount screws and fold over out of the way.

 

Under that board is the Phoenix sound board. Remove the 2 mount screws and pull out of the way.

 

Behind the start "delay" board which is nothing more than a board with 5 diodes is the rear boiler sub-frame to chassis screw.

 

Can see thru hole as I have the screw removed.

To the right of that can see another speaker and enclosure that I added. They have provisions for it so why not? Why didn't they install 2 at the factory??

 

So to sum it all up is it USA Trains fault for all this with smoke fluid ruined speaker and stripped/ loose chassis to boiler sub-frame screws??

 

I say yes and no. Shipping vibrations can loosen screws. There's industries devoted entirely to the subject. Then again USAT is not new to building trains. Sometimes a .02 cent lockwasher and or a dab of Blue Loctite Threadlocker eliminates many headaches.

 

Far as smoke fluid oil soaked speaker? Well these things are tested before shipping. USAT told me so in an email. Whoever tested it should have drained the smoke unit and then burned it out of smoke fluid before packing. I do with all engines I work on or sell. Then again the shippers didn't follow the upright arrows on outer brown shipping box as the only way for smoke fluid to run out and drench everything is to have box upside down, or on it's end whatever.

 

What worries me and should worry Charles Ro Jr. is how many of these are in this condition out there with owners not having a clue as how to get them right?

 

Am I happy to have a FEF-3??

You Betcha!     

[Screwy Nick]

All I can say is you sure got your work cut out to correct these issues, hope the longer screws solve the problem so you don't have to fill and then tap.  It ALMOST looked like it was a form of suspension there was so much play in the boiler over the chassis.  AND that sea of boards and wiring, that would give most cause to sit back and not want to delve into it. I do hope USAT does right by you, all you want is what you paid for.  Keep us informed.  

[BrianUPheritage]

Wow Chuck, you did a lot to get that in working order! Very impressive. I am lucky mine came just fine no issues at all. It seems like such a toss up on what you get.  When I got my hudson a few years back it couldn't even pull it's own tender. I had to send it back and get a different one in return.

 

Brian

[Chuck]

Nick, That's what I had initially thought was some kind of suspension but then after taking a good look seen was loose screws.  Personally I think that this was a returned engine that Ro's "service" department went thru and put back in stock but USA Trains Customer Service told me that NONE have been returned...yeah whatever a-holes!!

 

Oh longer screws up front worked out just fine. If they didn't hold then would have drilled and tapped for M3.5mm screws as plenty of material in there. All 3 mount screws now have lockwashers on front and start washer on rear with blue threadlocker. 

[Chuck]

Brian, Yes I am glad that yours is in fine shape! 

 

I do know what you're saying about it being a crap shoot whether get a good one or bad. My USAT Big Boy arrived in perfect shape years ago when they first came out. Ray's first one had one side of smokebox paint touched up with an airbrush and the paint didn't match! So that one went back. His second one made it about half way around layout and went up in smoke as electronics fried. That one went back. His third one is excellent!

 

I've had a couple of Hudson's thru here over the years that were excellent runners!

 

For me a very big part of the hobby is working on this stuff so this FEF is a interesting project albeit an expensive one!

[Chuck]

Nick, Remember years ago on MLS where some poor USAT GG-1 owner went round and round with USAT "Service"?? Seems that either the pantographs quit raising up and down or the QSI soundcard crapped out. Either way he got jerked around by them pretty good and they never did make it right.

 

I gave up on USAT "Service" when I had a problem with a #6 switch that wouldn't change frog polarity. Service guy told me that switch frogs don't change polarity. He also said that all switches that went in for warranty work were returned as a manual switch. That told me all that I needed to know about their excellent "Service Department"! 

[Screwy Nick]

Speaking of USAT & GG1, Mine came through with one of the cab lights not working.  Was 'informed' that there were no more Tuscan ones available and if I sent it back they doubt they could correct it. That is the only train piece I haven't taken apart, YET.  And yes I do remember the MLS incident you mentioned.  I've even given up on ordering parts, got the run-around with PA power trucks.  Two came through with axle bushings and the third one didn't.  Not only sloppy fit but also a loss of power pick up.  Was twice ASSURED they sent new side frames, which I never received.  Emails and pic's were exchanged, and their person never signed them, I was told there were no more in stock. Found bushings on Carr.  Your past experience with the #6 and now the FEF seems they have no-one that can do even the slightest repair.  It is obvious someone who doesn't know how to handle a screwdriver had that loco apart and damaged it.  I am glad you got it fixed, and are now happy with it, but it was unnecessary.      While I'm at it:  Live steam locomotives come with a Boiler Certification Certificate which means it has been tested under much higher pressure than you would ever get it. My first AML K4 kept blowing out the burners when the pressure got to 20lbs.  I brought it to one of their authorized techs, who also builds Live Steamers.  He determined it did have a boiler leak, but Accucraft would not pay him to fix it.  I sent it back and they sent me a new one.  For my troubles the one they sent me had an axle pump, which was what I had ordered in the first place and didn't get.  Oh yea, return shipping was $70, so I did pay for the axle pump, TWICE. Like Chuck, I am very happy to have my K4, but the road to happiness isn't always paved.       

[Sean]

Well... Nice pics Chuck...I do hope the plastic they used will last  .... Ro's has had a large amount of workers retire...Like the Parts guy ...It's going to take a while for the new people to get with it..The last time I went in I didn't recognize anyone other the Sr & Jr ... I'm planning to go to the Big E train show ..I'm wondering who will be working it if they even go .. http://www.railroadhobbyshow.com/ .... I'm glad you like the new engine..I love my Hudson ..it has a ZIMO decoder instead of the stock items... My best runner..

[Screwy Nick]

Sean, Mike in parts will not be missed by me and I bet some others.  He flat out lied  twice when he told me he shipped the side frames.  I was later told was out of stock by the person who refused to identify herself.  I believe all 3 were BS.  Went from a company that I once felt very good about, to now nothing.  I do believe their new attitude is "where else you going to go for 1:29".  I grieve for the future of this hobby.  

[Sean]

Funny I had a good relation with him... but I was there @ the store ... 

[Screwy Nick]

Sean, glad you had positive experience with him.  It's much easier to BS someone on the phone than in person.  Had he told me the truth from the start, that they weren't going to replace them, it would have saved me three weeks of waiting. Would have searched and found the bushings I needed sooner and the project would have continued without interruption.  

[Chuck]

Sean, You know I don't think Ro even showed at the TCA Eastern Division York, Pa. Show last October? Trainworld backed out of that show at the last minute because Ken Bianco Jr. claimed he got Covid but a few days later he made a video of him hosting some kids hospital train races...go figure?

 

Nick Jr, Yeah that's too bad that they jerk customers around like they do. Seems that since Sr. passed away the business is taking a dive.

 

I mean USA Trains inventory is very low. On Ro's site there's product pages that are blank. SD70's, 4-Bay Centerflow Hoppers & Modern Tank Cars pages are a blank. In the past there'd at least be artwork up with pre-order announcements and some random future shipping date.

 

Absolutely no mention of the Intermodal Shipping Containers.

 

Cabooses are very low stock along with most of the Ultimate Line.

 

Now I see passenger cars that are sold out being removed from listings. 

 

Absolutely no new announcements at all this year. Seems all that's happening is decisions that Sr. made are being fulfilled and that's it. Is USA Trains winding down??

 

Like others said back some 15 years ago when Lionel was stumbling..."Lionel is a rudderless ship." I'm starting to wonder if USA Trains is a "rudderless ship?"

[BrianUPheritage]

I had a good experiencies on the phone with Mike in parts, my problem was lots of parts were no longer available. Last 2 figures I ordered looked like they came out of destroyed engines, they were rough, I repainted both engineers and installed them in my aristocraft mallet.

 

Future of ultimate series.....no idea. So many opportunities for them to make money but will they?

Looking for 4-bays, intermodals, & containers...CharlesRo zero.

So many items I would like to get but are not made, most desirable would be the Union Pacific auxiliary tender. I can't be the only one to want at least a pair of these.

Brian

[Chuck]

Mike in parts retired right after Sr. passed away which is bad as he knew where "stuff" was in that place.

 

I did talk to Butch at Ro yesterday and I'm getting a bit of a refund from them...or so I was told. 

 

I also asked about whether or not they're going to re-stock all the depleted inventory and got a bullshit response of  "we have some some big huge shipments that were due to arrive but because of the ongoing situations and the way things are that's all been pushed back until at least June 2022."  

 

Yes some auxiliary water tanks would be nice! Back in my brain also want to make some nice DDA40X's in 1:29. Not some weird looking 3D printed thing with extended truck frames to fit USA drives into. That looks goofy. Aristo SD45 bodies are damn close and the AML GP60M cab is also close.

 

Also thinking of chopping up a USAT Big Boy and making a Challenger out of it...I'm not a 4014 fan.

[BrianUPheritage]

Well I am glad they are going to refund you some, they absolutely needed to. A challenger would be great. USA trains should make a challenger in ultimate series not prestige. Lower selling price and could fit on 10ft dia. easy and came in a lot of road names. Would be popular with everyone I think.

 

Brian

[Dash 8]

Very interesting opinions, if this continues soon there will be no more producers on our scale. And what about the continued existence of MTH's products? All very strange, as if no one wants to make money....

Chuck, Great Engine

 

Regards

Jan

[Screwy Nick]

 

Jan, I think they are afraid to invest/gamble what it takes to put one of these in production.  

Brian, I think I would go for a Challenger in the Ultimate series. I wonder why they only made 1 steamer in that series? that I'm aware of. 

[Chuck]

Jan,  Don't count MTH being out of the picture yet as Trainworld is taking pre-orders for MTH One-Gauge tank cars for later this year. MTH has publicly stated that they'll continue producing a few One-Gauge items every year. I wouldn't be surprised to see another run of the SD70's as those things sold out at MTH rather quickly. 

[Rayman4449]

Thank you for sharing the detail info!  This info sharing led me to find that the 2 FEFs sent to me so far have had the short screw issue that holds the front of the main frame to the lower part of the boiler.  So I was able to help prevent some major damage if that frame cracked and fell out only being held by rear screws.

[Chuck]

Whew that's good! Glad it helped out a bit!

[Chuck]

Now here's something I find a bit interesting!

 

Seems the USA FEF-3 smoke unit is a copy of the Marklin design or USAT had Marklin design the smoke system. Infact I wouldn't be surprised if Marklin made these FEF's as nowhere on the engine is it labeled as "USA Trains Malden Mass. Made In China". 

 

 These pictures I'm posting are of a KM BR50 smoke unit and comparing to the USAT smoke unit.

Marklin bought out KM. Besides the smoke units looking similar I seen where Marklin uses big thumbscrews to mount their locomotives to the wooden shipping shelf and this FEF uses same. The USAT Hudson and Big boy used hex head allen bolts.  

 

Here's a KM (Kiss) 2 chambered smoke unit for stack & cylinder steam made out of plastic...

 

Here's the USAT 3 chambered smoke unit for stack, cylinder and whistles smoke made out of die-cast metal (Zamek). Note, I have the 3 heaters removed.

 

Here's the KM smoke unit fan end...This one has 2 fans.

 

Here's the USAT fan end..3 fans. Fan  mounting looks identical right down to fan wire colors!

 

Here's the KM heater, wicking and fan motor.

 

Heater, thermistor and gasket.

 

Same parts from USAT smoke unit.

 

BR fan motor...

 

To me everything looks way to identical for just a mere coincidence.?? 

[Screwy Nick]

I don't think China respects Copy Rite, everything is fair game. On the bright side, maybe the other sellers offer replacement parts? 

[Chuck]

Nick, Could be just copied by the chinese!  As far as replacement parts from USAT well think I can come up with them. Smoke heaters just order same size/ ohm in wire wound resistors, put in vice and crush off the porcelain. Thermistors just cross reference at Digi-Key which I already did. Gaskets well you know...homemade!  Fan motors I'm sure can cross reference.

[Chuck]

Well I've been having problems with the smoke unit on this thing.  I'll start explaining here.

Do not exceed 24V DC!!

 

And here...

 

And here...

 

Okay, I get it...Do Not Exceed 24V DC.

 What mine does is with 22V DC on rails according to the volt meter via a Bridgeworks MAG25TDR and confirmed with a multimeter is after say a few minutes of use the smoke control board shuts down. To reset kill the track power and re-apply. Then it works fine for a few minutes and shutsdown.

 

The Marklin BR50 instruction manual states that after 5 minutes their smoke units will shutdown and need a re-boot. Is that relevant?? I don't know except the 2 smoke units look very similar.

 

Okay if I turn down track power to say 16V DC the smoke unit is happy and will stay on until unit runs dry or I've had enough smoke inhaling indoors and shut it off.

 

I removed the smoke unit operating board and put under a 12X stereo microscope to read the chip numbers. Ends up the board design utilizes PWM with timer and temperature circuits among many others. I think a glitch in the programming is causing it to prematurely shut down. Mike @ USAT parts said "no parts available" and "no idea as to reflashing the firmware"...typical for that outfit.

 

Since my trains run in a command control environment with track power anywhere from 22V to 30V keeping power under 16V is unacceptable. So I added a Buck Converter between the smoke board input and power switch. It's set at 16V output and now smoke unit is happy!

 

I do see the smoke output varying from good full smoke to partial then back to full. I did find the instructions, free software and hardware needed to access the main chip on electronics but I'm not a programmer.

 

Here's the smoke control board....

 

The twenty pin board in center is main culprit. If anybody wants to know it's a 063AC voltage regulator. 

 

Here I added a adjustable Buck regulator under the driveshaft.

 

Good for 24V DC my ass. Then again the manual doesn't specifically state what the smoke system max voltage is rated.

I'm not done with this yet!

[Chuck]

Oh I forgot to mention that the instruction manual says to refill smoke unit with 1/2 ounce smoke fluid. It'll take that as the reservoir is huge! I use MegaSteam. The coal and pine scent is nice!

 http://megasteam.com/index.html