John Carmichael Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Three years ago I bought a used Santa Fe F-3 Diesel 70-2013-1 made in 2005 or 2007. Since I've owned it, many plastic parts have developed hairline fractures and then broken off. Most of them I could repair by gluing. At first, it was the small parts like stairs. Then those plastic pillars that screws screw into began falling off. Then the cowcatcher. It got to the point where I could only screw in half of the screws that hold the body shell to the frame. Today though was worse. I had to remove the body shell to get to a broken protosound unit that I was going to send to Ray for testing. As I gently removed the body shell, the frame cracked completely in two and the front truck fell off! This engine has never been mistreated while I owned it. I always keep it inside while not in use. It's almost as if the plastic has some sort of plastic cancer. Who knows what the previous owner did to it, if anything. Here's my question. Do you guys think this is from some sort of mistreatment (outside storage damage from sun or temperature), old age, or is this just the nature of the plastic used? If it is caused from old age, then I'd imagine that everybody who has an old MTH locomotive would see the same plastic rot on their old locomotives. Have any of you seen this on your old (circa 2005 or 2007) MTH locos? Thanks! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blid Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I’m afraid it is the plastic. Weather it is age or some manufacturing problem I don’t know. My SF F-3 Slave had a pillar broken off when I had to open it to fix the cable mounting that had broken off. Now the diaphragm (?) stays in place with duck tape. Now I know I can expect more problems. I have Marklin H0 too, and for a period of time some of their tracks with plastic roadbed became very brittle after a couple of years. As far as I have heard, it had to do with the environment where they were made, Not controlled and the humidity varied. Could be, I don’t know. Blid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Wow, that looks like it was dropped! I have many and have not seen that yet. Broken posts can be caused by overtightening the body screws. A good tip that I read, says to turn the screw backwards first, to set the screw in the already cut threads. You may feel a slight click or it may drop. It will then go in much easier. I have seen some things in the O scale line though. I wonder if being outside in the heat of summer, makes this show up more?? That F series looks like a good start to a scratch build!! (hint) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B44 Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Maybe a brass strip and screwed to it would fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I can say this is a first to see a frame cracked let alone completely broken. I have seen posts for coupler mounts, cow catchers and the posts that hold the boards for tether connections fracture, some needing repair. I know you live in Arizona. Do you recall where the engine was purchased from (what part of the country it came from? Don't recall when you said you purchased it (and how long it would have been stored and cared for by someone else) but I always suggest keeping engines in a temp controlled environment and away from extreme hot and cold and the expansion and contraction that comes with those temperature changes. In this case I would guess either that the engine may have been stored outside in extreme conditions for a long portion of it's life before you bought it or got an engine frame made with a batch of plastic that had a poorly mixed area when it was still a liquid. I don't know with certainly that storing outside and extreme temp conditions really are an issue it is just something I feel is worth taking into consideration and the additional care if a person can. I don't believe age alone is the issue. While I dont own any of the MTH Diesels, I have a lot of their steamers here (6 Big Boys, 7 Triplexes, 2 Challengers etc) and I dont see anything like this where boilers, frames, tender frames/shells just start cracking and falling apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I'm guessing at this point you are looking for a replacement frame, but let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Carmichael Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Thank all of you for answering. Here are my comments and answers. Blid: Seems that you and Ray are the only ones who have seen this. Enginear Joe, although he has many old MTH has never seen it. This seems to point to a bad batch of plastic or environmental factors. Although I'm not a chemist, I know that rubber will disintegrate and become hard and very brittle in dry climates like Arizona. Once I bought a box of rubber bands and after just a year they were all hard and unusable. Maybe plastic behaves like rubber in dry climates? Enginear Joe: Scratch building the remains into something useable has crossed my mind to salvage the workable parts. The motors and smoke generator work perfectly. It'd be a shame to throw them away. Jerry B44: Yea, I thought about repairing it with brass reinforcements, but it might be useless and short-lived as the plastic rot will surely continue rotting the rest of the frame. Oddly, all the plastic rot has been on the frame and not on the body shell. Different plastics maybe? Rayman4449: I bought it on Ebay and unfortunately can't remember where it came from. It's very good news that you haven't seem this on any of your steamers. I'd hate for this to happen to my beautiful Triplex someday. You hinted that F-3 replacement frames might be available. Is that true??? If so, please let me know. thanks again to you all. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I don't think it's the dry climate. If it has become brittle due to extreme temperatures then I would expect it would be because of heat but I'm not sure that the engine would have really been exposed to those kinds of temperatures. In the end it is probably bad plastic and we need to just try and secure a replacement and be done with the situation. I'll put it on the list for when I request my next parts order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 It seems like Ray can get the parts when others can't. I will watch to see if you decide to sell. I made a mp15 switcher and she needs modern company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Carmichael Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 Hi Joe & Ray: Joe- I will gladly sell you the F-3 with the broken frame at a very reasonable price if Ray can't get a replacement frame from MTH. It might take a while, but I'll keep you in mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardtrain Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I would send a email to MTH and see if they reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Carmichael Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Hello All: I have an idea that I'd like your thoughts on... I just inspected the condition of the plastic on the rear slave A unit of my Santa Fe F-3 AA set (70-2013-1). I see no hairline fractures or cracks as I saw on the main front A unit. This seems like strong evidence that the plastic fatigue is a result of a bad batch of plastic used in the front A unit and is not age or environment related as both units are the same age and have been stored in the same places. I desperately want to have at least one fully functional F-3 to pull my train. That said, it occurs to me that I might be able to remove the good frame from the rear slave unit and use it on the front A unit. The frames seem to be the same design. Would this be possible? I'd also like to replace the front A unit's broken Protosound 2.0 board with a new 3.0. Is this a difficult upgrade or simply an easy matter of unplugging all the 2.0 board connections and plugging them into a new 3.0 board? What all would I need to buy from Ray? Would it be the Protosound 3.0 Upgrate Kit (Diesel) 50-1912? Thanks for any help with this. I've never done an upgrade before and I'd like to learn how. John p.s. If Ray is successful in getting a new frame from MTH, I can put it back in the rear slave unit. But lord only knows how long that will take and if they even have one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginear joe Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 all lights must be LED for full PS3 upgrade. The upgrade kit comes with everything you would need in this job I believe. There are many wires to get right 40 on the main harness. They are much smaller gauge wires than PS2 and the board is really unrepairable. I would suggest installing PS3 for only people with experience in handling decoders. It's not that difficult, but don't make any critical mistakes. I'm unsure about the chassis differences. I'd talk to Ray first, so that the correct sound set could be loaded to handle this engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blid Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Raymond delivered the PS3 upgrade for my F3 (and all the other engines) with sound already installed. To replace the PS2 I only had to disconnect and then reconnect all plugs to the PS3. The battery pack is not used anymore so I removed it. The only adjustment was to make one of the holes for the new heatsink oval to get the screw down. If I could do it, anybody can. I don’t know anything about the swapping of the frames though. blid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 John, best to email me directly for items such as this as I cant always follow every post on the forums. Frames should be the same. No on the diesel upgrade kit. Send me email and I'll go over the options. I can't fully reply here this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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