PRR T1 kitbash from 2 Hudsons

[rbrown7713]

I decided to start this project because I just like the looks of the T1 and obviously, I like a challenge.  This will surely be a challenge.  I will have to make new side rods, cab, and shell.  I bought an O gauge shell for reference.  I have some plans downloaded from the web.  I will have to make some of my own drawings to adapt and rearrange major parts.  The shell will involve a bit of art work to capture the T1 look.  What I have going for me is that the Hudson's wheels and arrangement are almost the same as the T1.  I will remove the rear axle of the Hudson and attach another Hudson frame to the front for the other two drivers.  I was surprised to learn that there is only one axle driven and the other two axles of the Hudson is actually driven by the side rods.. That can't be good for traction as they would be constantly accelerating and de-accelerating causing drag.  The Hudsons drive wheels are .150 in diameter less of the scale 2.5 wheel that would make it a scale 80 inch driver, but close enough. I had to relocate the cylinders closer to the wheels.  I just moved the mount on the frame closer, so it attaches just as the original just in a new place. The rod slide on the T1 has a single guide on the top, so I cut the bottom one off of the Hudson's. With some grinding, close enough.   The valve is really simple on the T1, one arm and that is it.  This project will be figured out as I go. Bob. 

[rbrown7713]

I am getting a little lazy and was going to call Accucraft tomorrow and see if I could by some side rods, but quickly realized that they would not fit because of the wheel centers on the Hudson, so I am drawing plans for them now. I will be making them out of 6061-T6  aluminum and then polish them.  I am also going  to try to power all of the axles with a belt drive.  What I want to do is set the motor in the center of the two gear boxes and power the gear boxes with the drive shafts and then build into the boxes a timing pulley to power the axles.  Originally the Hudson drives one axle of the three and the other axles are driven by the drag on the tracks and by the side rods.  By powering all of the axles with one motor, there won't be any difference of speed or drag on the other wheels because they will all turn at the same rate.  At least this is my idea, and I will see if it will work at all. I just sent for a catalog, from SDPSI, a company the supplies small timing belts and timing belt pulleys and a bunch of other stuff, useful to modelers. I have used there components before on a VTOL airplane that I built in the past, to power and tilt the ducted fan, and worked well. Bob

[Jerry B44]

I used Delrin gears and chain  on the old Challenger I made from two Pacifics. Mounted the motor on top of the block.  Has held up okay.

[rbrown7713]

Did you take any pictures, sounds interesting.  I am still waiting for the other Hudson and will do some figuring when I get it.  This Hudson has a large motor, only problem is that it only has the shaft on one side. Know of any motors that is the same size that has a shaft on both sides?  If I can fit it in, one possibility is to use the same mount for the Hudson's motor and just install a timing belt to the other axle.  So many possibilities. Here I have removed everything that does not look like a T1, Soon, I will be adding things that do look like a T1. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

I couldn't find a topic about outdoor layouts, I am going to give you updates on my outdoor layout in this topic.  There won't be many interruptions, because it will be a slow build, so here is an introduction to the layout. I will have to upload to YouTube, I can't load the MP4 here, so be back in a few. Bob.

 

[Sean]

Interesting ... I would start a new thread in the track section so this doesn't get lost or forgotten hear.

Your form work looks incredible I can't wait to see how this layout turns out!

Good luck and keep us informed!

Sean

[rbrown7713]

I appreciate your input, and thanks for the compliment about the form, I think it will work out well and today I am pouring the first section. The updates on the layout are going to be few and far between, so I would rather just stay in one place,  If and when I get finished with the layout, then I will post in the track section, I get lost easily. Bob.

[Jerry B44]

My back was sore after looking at your video.  Amazing work you are doing there Bob, will be amazing to see!

[rbrown7713]

Someone asked me one time. how do you eat an elephant?, and my answer was, one bite at a time, so with the crane and a mixer, shouldn't be too bad, and thanks for the kudo's. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

Well, today, I bought some plywood to roll my crane on, cut it in half and sealed it with poly, because it is going to be out there for a long time. I also lost my springs for the vibrating table, so had to go to Ace to buy 4 no. 15 springs for the vibrating table. Then, I spent several hours trying to figure out where to cut the frames for joining the two Hudson frames together for the T1 and finally decided where to cut and I hope I chose the correct place.  It was a choice of many, but will require some re-enforcing because it happened to not have a lot of meat in that area.  I was restricted because of the wheel arrangement and that was the primary target of choice.  I had to make the decisions based on where the cylinders go, and where the motor is going.  I don't know if I am making the correct decision, but I have decided on one motor driving all four axles.  I am going to set the motor in the middle of the two gear boxes and use drive shafts between the two gear boxes.  I am trying to balance between power and power drain because of the fact that it will be battery powered and hopefully lessen the drain.  I am using a motor out of an F7 because it has shafts on both ends of the motor to attach the drive shafts to.  The next challenge is to fit the shells in such a way as to use the stock screw anchors for simplicity, may work out, don't know yet, might have to make my own anchors, will see soon.  I am going to have to make a tight bushing for the piston rod because of the fact that it now has only an upper hangar and the original slide hangars were either warn out and sloppy or that is the way they are.  I am still trying to figure out the belt drive to join both axles so that all axles are driven, should get the order book from SDPSI, the co. that makes the timing pulleys and timing belts, that might be the biggest challenge of all.  Here is a picture of the relative placement of the frame for joining. I am also showing the relative position of where the motor is going. Too tired  tonight to join them, so I will do it tomorrow. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

Well, I finally fit and joined the two Hudson frames and will be gluing them in a few minutes, so here is a picture.  Now to figure out how to fit the shells. Bob.

[enginear joe]

I really hate to ask now, but shouldn't the two engine halves be allowed to pivot?

[rbrown7713]

No, the T1 was a rigid frame, non-articulated.  The T1 only ran on a route that had large radii and was limited to certain routes.  My radius is ten feet, so should be fine with the curves. Bob.

[enginear joe]

interesting. I knew there was something about the T1 that limited what rails it could run on.

I hope it works out. I just noticed that the GS series is articulated and the drivers seem much closer together! I was worried about how far they are apart on the T1 model.

[rbrown7713]

OK, there is another type of train also called articulated, but in that case they are talking about adjacent passenger cars sharing one truck and including several  cars that stayed together and acting as one.  The daylight train was such a train. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

Well, I had my first near disaster.  After gluing the two frames together and rolling it on the track. the third axle  was not touching enough on the track, almost free wheeling.  I then cut a slot on either side of the frame and put enough pressure in the middle of the frame and then re-glued the frame and now all wheels are contacting the same.  Wow, I was worried for a while, but now it is OK.  I will re-enforce it on the inside of the frame rails, so now everything is OK.  Even though the two frames went together where the frame was narrow in height, the frame seems to be as strong as the rest of the frame, that super glue is great. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

In order to couple the two gear boxes from the Hudson together with the motor in the center, I had to change the angle of the input shaft.  The stock gear box was at an angle to allow the coupling  of the larger MTH motor, so I took the angle out and I will make a mold of the new configuration to make two gear boxes and then link them.  I will have to pay attention to the mating surface mount, as it is 1.000 inches to the main gear center.  I will do that on my mill with the use of a fixture. Here is a before and after configuration of the two. Bob.

[enginear joe]

very interesting. Nice work.

[rbrown7713]

I am only doing this to get all wheels driving. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

First part of the boiler in position and the cab is close to the same shape of the T1.  I am going to have to enlarge the boiler, about 1/4 inch too  small in diameter. Better too small than too big. Will fit the front part of the shell tomorrow. Bob.

[du-bousquetaire]

Hey Bob:  I like kitbashing, but that is a way out project! The T1 has a much larger boiler diameter than the hudson I measured 2M25 diameter on the hudson and 2.50 scale meters on the T1 in the cyclopedia (Sorry I only have a scale rule for HO in meters) The difficult part to get right is the Belpair firebox and combustion chamber. + the skyline casing. I would try to takle that in brass as you can solder to it and this helps a good deal especially since the T1 gets to be quite a heavy engine. The rods were lightweight alloy and roller bearing I can send you a drawing which gives the exact profile if you want. I have it in a French book on steam locomotives. There was a huge boss around the bearing and it seems that the rods were quite thin (most manufactureres and Accucraft got that all wrong).

 

The reason the T1 didn't get to do what they had been planned for was the curve at the west end of Pitsburgh terminal the approach to the Allegheny river bridge was so sharp that on some crossovers they derailed. Originally they had been designed to handle Harrisburgh to Chicago trains with one coaling stop en route. I understand that the problematic turnouts were modified and that they could go through that erea after.

 Well I wish you all the best.

[rbrown7713]

I had to widen the shell .325 inches and now I am shaping the nose. I am doing it with part of the 1:32 scale drawing on 1/8 inch plywood and then making a skeleton shape to keep it accurate.  I will shape it tomorrow.  Thanks for the offer of the plans, but I have taken some accurate 1:64 scale plans and scaled them to 1:32 and  is working ok.  I don't do brass, can't solder worth a darn, plus it is hard to sand and shape without making a lost wax mold.  I am able to cut some of the drawing out and use them for shapes.  I am using urethane foam for the shaping of the nose, reminds me of my airplane modeling days.  I think that this will come out better if I make a mold, so what you see here is a pattern for the mold.  Here are some pictures, hope to have it shaped tomorrow and will post pictures. Bob.

[du-bousquetaire]

The way you have with molds and resins I am sure you will make a great job of it, Bob.  Widening the shell is a good idea, As you have a nice skirt under the running boards which hides all the underside of the boiler pretty well. Its too bad you live so far away otherwise I would have invited you to mold mine as a patern. Once you get the boiler the skyline casing and the pilot paterns made the rest is pretty much sheet work. And some pipe work under the running boards. You will have some work on the tender depending if you want to do an early version with all the top flaring or a later version (as per Accucraft , alas) were most of it was cut away by the shops. One nice thing though is the valve gear is very simple just a link to the crosshead to bring the movement to the Franklin miniature valve gear box, inside the frames. You could aproach the Accucraft people to try to, get some of the tender trucks. I had a similar project which was to make an RF&P 4-8-4 named after southern governors from a daylight, but the skyline casing is cast on making it very difficult without having two boilers. They were nice engines with hitchins tenders and the PRR leased them for a while. Here are some nose photos.

[rbrown7713]

Wow, these pictures help.  You are very generous to offer to let me use your loco. as a plug for a mold, but even if I lived near you, I wouldn't do that because of what a beautiful T1  you have as I wouldn't want to ruin it.  I found out after shaping my first try in the shape, my drawing depicted a different shape of the front wedge, much longer, so they have two different shapes of the nose.  So, I removed the foam and started over and the nose will look more like yours.  Thanks for your help, it is much appreciated. I have contacted Accucraft about buying pilot and trailing trucks and also the tender trucks, but haven't heard anything back from them, he said he will check if they have any spares.  Send more pictures, as I want to make this thing as close to prototype as I can. Bob.

[rbrown7713]

This what I have so far, and will require more shaping after the fiberglass. Bob.